Can the Flames catch Vancouver?

[strombad]

Originally Posted by moon

You take that mentally tough team and winning culture, I'll take Crosby, Toews, Malkin, Doughty and Price and we'll see who wins.



That "top 5" mentally tough team looks to be getting us two bottom 5 finishes in a row. Meanwhile Colorado are riding top 3 picks Duchene, Landeskog and MacKinnon to a play-off spot this year and bigger things likely in the future.

Boston has drafted in the top 5 twice in the last decade. Neither of those players currently play for them, and only Seguin played for them during their Stanley Cup win.

Drafting high is not the solution, drafting well is. Drafting 2nd or drafting 5th is irrelevant so long as you're picking the correct players and developing your TEAM properly. For every Chicago or Pittsburgh, there's an Edmonton or NYI.

So yeah, I'll take the team that's developing a winning culture and drafting 5-8 for a couple years over the team that tanks and drafts 1-3 for a couple years. Being better than Edmonton and Vancouver is never bad, draft be damned.

[puds]

No way this team doesn't finish bottom five. As a season ticket holder, I'll be pissed if we don't get a top five pick. I could care less about the small wins over our rivals. I would way rather draft elite talent than watch a bad but hardworking team.

[jeffman]

Why can't we just play hard and lose. No one will remember the standings in a year anyways

[puds]

Originally Posted by strombad

Drafting high is not the solution, drafting well is. Drafting 2nd or drafting 5th is irrelevant so long as you're picking the correct players and developing your TEAM properly. For every Chicago or Pittsburgh, there's an Edmonton or NYI.

Drafting high and drafting well aren't mutually exclusive. Say all you want on the subject but this team is better if we are able to draft MacKinnon instead of Monahan.

Honestly, I am all for the Flames being terrible if it means I get to watch McDavid play for Calgary for the next decade.

[BigBrodieFan]

This is the problem with 'The Draft.' Way too much stock is put in draft pick position for players who might not even work out, as has proven in the past. We should always play to win, not lose to draft. Teams with the former mentality opposed to the latter, (for example the Denver Broncos) are contenders every year.

[moon]

Originally Posted by strombad

Boston has drafted in the top 5 twice in the last decade. Neither of those players currently play for them, and only Seguin played for them during their Stanley Cup win.

Drafting high is not the solution, drafting well is. Drafting 2nd or drafting 5th is irrelevant so long as you're picking the correct players and developing your TEAM properly. For every Chicago or Pittsburgh, there's an Edmonton or NYI.

So yeah, I'll take the team that's developing a winning culture and drafting 5-8 for a couple years over the team that tanks and drafts 1-3 for a couple years. Being better than Edmonton and Vancouver is never bad, draft be damned.

Sure Boston did it good for them but the Kings, Hawks, Pens all did fine with their losing cultures and top 3 picks. No reason why you can't finish bottom 3 and still make smart draft picks like the Bruins did.

Drafting high certainly isn't the solution but drafting high and drafting well is a much better way to go than just drafting well on its own.

Edmonton and NYI's problem isn't finishing low it is garbage management. Not sure anyone here is advocating for the Flames to finish low and hire morons like Lowe, Snow, Tambellini to run the team.

If anything looking at teams like Florida and Colombus finishing 4-9th has been their biggest problem why they struggled so long to get out of lottery position. Their having a better "winning culture" over teams like the Pens didn't help them out and having To choose guys like Weiss and Olesz instead of Kovalchuk and Malkin or Picard, Brule, Brassard, and Filatov over Malkin, E. Staal, Toews, Stamkos certainly doesn't make those teams feel better about not tanking and finishing 4-8th those years.

And what evidence is there that there is some sort of winning culture being developed here? The team was worse after the trade deadline last the last team the young guys were providing the team with so much energy and winning culture. This year they have continued that low level play and hardly seems like a winning culture.

After their pathetic dive last year the Avs seem to be just fine in terms of winning this year.

[moon]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

This is the problem with 'The Draft.' Way too much stock is put in draft pick position for players who might not even work out, as has proven in the past. We should always play to win, not lose to draft. Teams with the former mentality opposed to the latter, (for example the Denver Broncos) are contenders every year.

From 2006-2010 the Broncos missed the play-offs. 2011 they got a lucky play-off but we far from close to winning or competing for the SB.

That is 6 of the last 8 years that they have not been contenders.

They finally returned to contention by getting a top 3 pick (Miller) and former top pick (Manning) giving them the elite talent needed to contend.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by puds

Honestly, I am all for the Flames being terrible if it means I get to watch McDavid play for Calgary for the next decade.

Good luck with that as I dread seeing how many teams are going to tank this time next year. Even in a relatively average/weak draft we are already seeing the Islanders, Predators, Hurricanes in full tank mode. I imagine next year there will be at the very least 10 teams that unexplainably just stop winning next March.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by puds

Drafting high and drafting well aren't mutually exclusive. Say all you want on the subject but this team is better if we are able to draft MacKinnon instead of Monahan.



Honestly, I am all for the Flames being terrible if it means I get to watch McDavid play for Calgary for the next decade.

I think drafting high is only valuable because it lowers the opportunity for "misses."

The Islanders, Panthers, and Winnipeg have drafted in the top 5 extensively over the past 15 years, and all have nothing to show for it. A team like Boston has done it once, and is a perennial contender.

For the sake of comparison (number of top 5 picks over the last 15 years earned from finishing in the bottom 5):

Winners:
Anaheim - 1 (1cup)
Boston - 1 (1 cup)
Chicago - 3 (1 cup)
Detroit - 0 (2 cups)
LA - 3 (1 cup)
Pittsburgh - 5 (1 cup)


"Losers":
Atlanta/Winnipeg - 6
Buffalo - 1
Edmonton - 3
Florida - 6
NYI - 6


From this, you can gather only that having top 5 picks does not actually create a successful team. Pittsburgh had a bunch, but Detroit hasn't had any. Conversely, teams like Winnipeg, Florida, and NYI have had more than any of the "contenders" and yet constantly fail to contend.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by strombad

I think drafting high is only valuable because it lowers the opportunity for "misses."

The Islanders, Panthers, and Winnipeg have drafted in the top 5 extensively over the past 15 years, and all have nothing to show for it. A team like Boston has done it once, and is a perennial contender.

For the sake of comparison (number of top 5 picks over the last 15 years earned from finishing in the bottom 5):

Winners:
Anaheim - 1 (1cup)
Boston - 1 (1 cup)
Chicago - 3 (1 cup)
Detroit - 0 (2 cups)
LA - 3 (1 cup)
Pittsburgh - 5 (1 cup)


"Losers":
Atlanta/Winnipeg - 6
Buffalo - 1
Edmonton - 3
Florida - 6
NYI - 6


From this, you can gather only that having top 5 picks does not actually create a successful team. Pittsburgh had a bunch, but Detroit hasn't had any. Conversely, teams like Winnipeg, Florida, and NYI have had more than any of the "contenders" and yet constantly fail to contend.

Well yes you have to hit on the picks but IMO it's also an organizational/coach thing. Look at the coaches that have coached the "winners" and compare them to the coaches that coached the "losers". Outside of Buffalo I see the rest of the "losers" teams having most of the worst head coaches in the league in that time span.

Drafting top 5 isn't enough as you also need good coaching and organizational management to get that talent to play to it's potential.

[wretched34]

I'd much rather have a winning culture than a top 3 pick in a rebuild.
Sure, drafting the top talent will help, but not near as much as being able to surround that elite prospect, with talented UFA's.
Drafting first overall doesn't mean you'll be instantly better (look at Edmonton), drafting high once or twice, but having a culture that UFA's find desirable is far more beneficial.
The Flames have that team culture that players find desirable, another good draft, and a trade or two won in our favor can put the team on the upswing, then the UFA's start taking us seriously.
Let the Canucks and Oilers draft 1 and 2 for as long as they like, as the Oilers have proven, they will only destroy that elite talent, and turn them into losers by shoving a losing culture down their throats. Vancouver is on track for that as well.

[TheDebaser]

The scouting reports for the 5-15 ranked players in this draft are all over the map, so even if we draft tenth we could still pull out a very good player if we make the right choices.

Look at what Dallas did last year. Nichushkin looks great for them right now. Drafting lower can end up netting you great players anyway. Jarome Iginla went 11th overall.

That said, it definitely is easier to pick up better players with better picks, but if Edmonton has taught us anything it's that winning games in the nhl is hard. You can't just take a year off and then decide to start doing it, you have to be giving it your all everytime you're out there, or else it completely ruins all of the talent on your team.

[moon]

Originally Posted by wretched34

The Flames have that team culture that players find desirable,

Based on what information are you making this claim?

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by moon

Based on what information are you making this claim?

Last night, 3rd period.

Seriously Eeyore, put a ####ing can in it already.

[moon]

Originally Posted by strombad

I think drafting high is only valuable because it lowers the opportunity for "misses."

The Islanders, Panthers, and Winnipeg have drafted in the top 5 extensively over the past 15 years, and all have nothing to show for it. A team like Boston has done it once, and is a perennial contender.

For the sake of comparison (number of top 5 picks over the last 15 years earned from finishing in the bottom 5):

Winners:
Anaheim - 1 (1cup)
Boston - 1 (1 cup)
Chicago - 3 (1 cup)
Detroit - 0 (2 cups)
LA - 3 (1 cup)
Pittsburgh - 5 (1 cup)


"Losers":
Atlanta/Winnipeg - 6
Buffalo - 1
Edmonton - 3
Florida - 6
NYI - 6


From this, you can gather only that having top 5 picks does not actually create a successful team. Pittsburgh had a bunch, but Detroit hasn't had any. Conversely, teams like Winnipeg, Florida, and NYI have had more than any of the "contenders" and yet constantly fail to contend.

Top 3 not top 5.

Drafting 5th would be disappointing this year.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

Last night, 3rd period.

Seriously Eeyore, put a ####ing can in it already.

What FA's signed with the team based on last night?

[puds]

I don't see how missing the playoffs since 2009 constitutes a winning culture.

If you are able to draft players like Toews they bring a winning culture to your club.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by moon

What FA's signed with the team based on last night?

I don't think you're allowed to sign any FAs until after July 1st.

[puds]

Boston is also different because they were able to sign one of the best defenseman in the NHL as a free agent. Calgary is unlikely to ever be in that position.

Anahiem also won the cup because they were able to sign a HOF defenseman and make a trade for a HOF defenseman. Their drafting is arguably the best in the NHL.

[the2bears]

So, should the Flames try to win tonight's game? I actually think the players on the ice should always play to win. The "tanking" aspect comes from how management handles things like the trade deadline, etc.