Liberals vote to legalize assisted suicide

[MarchHare]

I think it goes without saying that there will be regulations and guidelines. Nobody is proposing that one could choose assisted suicide willy-nilly without going through some kind of approval process with multiple physicians declaring that the patient has an incurable condition with no hope of recovery.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

No, but if it's socially acceptable to kill yourself to rid the physical pain, people are going to start believing it's no problem to kill yourself to rid the emotional pain.

Thank you for demonstrating how ridiculous the slippery slope logical fallacy is.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I understand the idea here, saving people from pain and humility, but I think it sets a bad precedent for teenage suicide, when killing yourself becomes a socially and legally acceptable way of dealing with your demons.

I don't think this is a carte blanche to start offing your friends if they ask......

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

No, but if it's socially acceptable to kill yourself to rid the physical pain, people are going to start believing it's no problem to kill yourself to rid the emotional pain.

This doesn't even make sense. People will kill themselves regardless of such a law. That's perfectly evident already. Suicide due to emotional pain has nothing to do with it being socially acceptable.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I don't think this is a carte blanche to start offing your friends if they ask......

I am not talking just about assisted suicide.

All I'm saying is that the more suicide becomes acceptable in society, the more it will be viewed as an acceptable option for people, regardless of their physical state.

I fail to see how I'm reaching here. I don't want to live in a world where killing yourself isn't a big deal.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I am not talking just about assisted suicide.

All I'm saying is that the more suicide becomes acceptable in society, the more it will be viewed as an acceptable option for people, regardless of their physical state.

I fail to see how I'm reaching here. I don't want to live in a world where killing yourself isn't a big deal.

I see what you are saying I do, I just don't think this is the thin edge of the suicide wedge that you think it is.

I see this as being a control last resort for people that no longer wish to live as situation with no hope of changing (terminal disease/vegetative state).

I am not sure I want to live in a society that requires people to live in pain or live a hopeless existance.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I see what you are saying I do, I just don't think this is the thin edge of the suicide wedge that you think it is.

I see this as being a control last resort for people that no longer wish to live as situation with no hope of changing (terminal disease/vegetative state).

I am not sure I want to live in a society that requires people to live in pain or live a hopeless existance.

Yes, obviously it is a last resort. It's always the last thing you do.

My problem is that something like this might move suicide up a level or two in the minds of younger people as an option to take.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Yes, obviously it is a last resort. It's always the last thing you do.

My problem is that something like this might move suicide up a level or two in the minds of younger people as an option to take.

If a person is thinking about suicide, IMO they are not in their "right mind" and I don't think the legality or acceptability of it will have a significant bearing.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm not for or against it specifically, I would need to know the mechanics of it before I even thing that its a valid platform piece, same as legalizing dope. Way to many times we've seen conservatives and Liberals make these grandiose premises only for them to be nowhere to be seen when their red or blue books come around.

I mean the income splitting thing for the conservatives makes no difference to me, but it was a major campaign promise that's never going to happen.

With assisted suicides I have to wonder

How does it work in getting approvals for it, whats the oversight?
How do you deal with a family physician or other doctor that's morally opposed to it since it goes against their oath of "Do no harm"?
How do you arbitrate the family if its split and the person who is suffering is not of a mental state to decide?
Whats the criteria for deciding to pull the plug? It can't just be pain and suffering?
How do you deal with life insurance, Is suicide even a death that's going to be covered?
Maybe a lawyer can answer, if a will is written after a person decides to die is it a will that's going to be heavily contested due to perceived duress?

Its nice that there's this vague promise out there, but there's not a lot of substance to it right now.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

If a person is thinking about suicide, IMO they are not in their "right mind" and I don't think the legality or acceptability of it will have a significant bearing.

The fact that they aren't in their right mind makes them even more susceptible.

I realize that if people are driven to suicide, they have some very extreme problems. But if you can't think straight, you might see assisted suicide as confirmation of your thoughts.

There is a reason why most schools won't publish memorials in yearbooks, etc. after a student commits suicide.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The fact that they aren't in their right mind makes them even more susceptible.

I realize that if people are driven to suicide, they have some very extreme problems. But if you can't think straight, you might see assisted suicide as confirmation of your thoughts.

There is a reason why most schools won't publish memorials in yearbooks, etc. after a student commits suicide.

Ah, you moved the goal posts. I thought we were talking teen suicide. Now you are talking assisted suicide, which I would hope would happen in a controlled env't, maybe a hospital or under the supervision of a medical doctor.

You are talking to very different things.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

No, but if it's socially acceptable to kill yourself to rid the physical pain, people are going to start believing it's no problem to kill yourself to rid the emotional pain.

That is a pretty massive leap and that is why there are safeguards built into any system, such as having multiple requests over an extended period of time as well as having two seperate and independent physicians evaluate the patient prior to the euthanasia. I also think that there needs to be a consultation with a psychiatrist but that is more my opinion than what the law in any nation states.

Where I think that the interesting area that the debate is going to go is toward dementias such as alzhiemers, which is soon going to be a major drain on the medical system. People like to think of this as primarly a humanistic venture but it also involves economics and the cost of keeping someone alive with a terminal illness.

If anyone is really interested in some books on the topic I highly recommend reading Peter Singer who is a very easy read and is quite thought provoking.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The fact that they aren't in their right mind makes them even more susceptible.

I realize that if people are driven to suicide, they have some very extreme problems. But if you can't think straight, you might see assisted suicide as confirmation of your thoughts.

There is a reason why most schools won't publish memorials in yearbooks, etc. after a student commits suicide.

Maybe the issue is a lack of mental health awareness and programs, it seems like your option is to bury one's head in the sand and ignore the actual issues.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Ah, you moved the goal posts. I thought we were talking teen suicide. Now you are talking assisted suicide, which I would hope would happen in a controlled env't, maybe a hospital or under the supervision of a medical doctor.

You are talking to very different things.

No, I'm not.

I'm talking about how legalizing assisted suicide, and thus suicide becoming more normalized in our society, might affect the minds of others, especially younger people, in their options of dealing with their own mental anguish.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Maybe the issue is a lack of mental health awareness and programs, it seems like your option is to bury one's head in the sand and ignore the actual issues.

I don't want to ignore the actual issue, but fact is a lot of people do not seek help. Many people commit suicide without their friends and family even being aware that a problem even existed.

Ideally, they'd get help for their specific problem, but somebody has to initiate it.

I want to avoid needless suicides for those who keep their pain a secret and don't seek out help.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its nice that there's this vague promise out there, but there's not a lot of substance to it right now.

Yeah, it's not a detailed proposal but rather a general statement of principle. This is the text of the resolution:

"Be it resolved that voluntary medically-assisted death be de-criminalized after a public consultation process designed to make recommendations to Parliament with respect to the criteria for access and the appropriate oversight system for medically-assisted end-of-life."

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Yes, obviously it is a last resort. It's always the last thing you do.

My problem is that something like this might move suicide up a level or two in the minds of younger people as an option to take.

Why would it? I'm trying to understand how you're equating someone with a terminal illness who WILL die sooner than later after a stretch of extreme suffering, to a depressed, if otherwise healthy teenager.

I very much doubt the legality of assisted suicide makes any difference to a suicidal teen. People who contemplate suicidal do not do so on the grounds of what is socially acceptable or what has precedent. As someone who (and I'll put this out there, I'd trust everyone not to make it joke) takes a healthy dose of medication to deal with bouts of depression, trust me when I say that thoughts of suicide are not logic based. Even less so when you're a teenager. There is no "well society thinks it's bad so I shouldn't".

You're out to lunch on this one. I get your concern, but it's totally unfounded.

[CaptainCrunch]

I think that we're a long ways from installing suicide booths on street corners for people to end their lives in a quick and painless or slow and painful method.

I would think that if someone wanted to end their lives due to disease that it would have to pass a major set of criteria over seen by panel at each hospital in the country.

I would also have to think that the panel would have to debate among other things
Prognosis of the disease
Quality of life and suffering
Possibility of cure
mental state of the patient (How do we figure that one out on whether someone can decide of to die or not and where's the breaking point on that)
responsibiliy handoff (If a person is not in a proper mental or physical state who can make the decision? A doctor? a family member?)
Allowances for mistakes and misdiagnosis
Impact on estate
Impact on inurance

Etc

Does this suddenly become a hugely expensive department in the government, the ministry of death and euthanasia (Yes ma'am, I work for MODE flashes a badge, and your time has come)

[GGG]

My concern is that relatives who don't want to support their parents or want their inheritance will push the older, possibly confused people to do it.

So I think the decision to kill yourself needs to be only made by the individual, prior to being not mentally fit to decide. If you miss that window I don't think anyone on your behalf should be able to decide for you until you are in a coma or on life support.

Also there should be a requirement to update any living wills or they are no longer valid (not sure if there is one now) and cant be used. Just because you made the living will when you were 30 doesn't mean it should be still valid when you are 60 if you haven't re-affirmed it. So I would like to see a 10 year update required.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by strombad

Why would it? I'm trying to understand how you're equating someone with a terminal illness who WILL die sooner than later after a stretch of extreme suffering, to a depressed, if otherwise healthy teenager.

I very much doubt the legality of assisted suicide makes any difference to a suicidal teen. People who contemplate suicidal do not do so on the grounds of what is socially acceptable or what has precedent. As someone who (and I'll put this out there, I'd trust everyone not to make it joke) takes a healthy dose of medication to deal with bouts of depression, trust me when I say that thoughts of suicide are not logic based. Even less so when you're a teenager. There is no "well society thinks it's bad so I shouldn't".

You're out to lunch on this one. I get your concern, but it's totally unfounded.

You seem to be making the incorrect assumption that suicidal ideation is only a symptom of depression. The reality is, there are a number of psychiatric conditions that can lead to thoughts of suicide, and, with all respect, I don't think you are an authority to say that his suggestions are unfounded. That being said, I think that with proper regulations and restrictions, medically assisted suicide is something that I could support, but I would need to see it fleshed out more than just the broad statement that the Liberals have provided thus far.