Prostitution Laws, let your voice be heard

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I am of the mind that non serious vices (Drugs, Prostitution) should be legalized, regulated and taxed. Part of the tax revenue goes towards the costs associated with the newly legalized things. Safe injection sites and access to treatment would be vastly better than having people OD or get bad stuff and suffer because of it. Similarly with prostitution, it will allow for a safer work environment (for both the Jon's and the workers) and less chance of them getting murdered, which is a huge problem albeit not the only one.

Drug use has been shown to have occurred thousands of years ago and has been there the entire time.

Prostitution is the "oldest profession" and hasn't been curbed since then. As long as men have penises, they will want to use them.

Instead of shaming these long held practices, maybe everyone should grow up and realize that for a lot of people, life is not awesome and .... happens for a variety of reasons. It is far easier to assist people that might not be in a great situation (Either drugs or being a prostitute) than it is to vilify and demonize them, especially when they are doing something that is "natural" in terms of it's prevalence throughout human history.


Also, when things like drugs and prostitution get legalized, the use of each drops because it doesn't have that "Danger" attached to it.

What do you consider serious vices?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I am of the mind that non serious vices (Drugs, Prostitution) should be legalized, regulated and taxed. Part of the tax revenue goes towards the costs associated with the newly legalized things. Safe injection sites and access to treatment would be vastly better than having people OD or get bad stuff and suffer because of it. Similarly with prostitution, it will allow for a safer work environment (for both the Jon's and the workers) and less chance of them getting murdered, which is a huge problem albeit not the only one.

Drug use has been shown to have occurred thousands of years ago and has been there the entire time.

Prostitution is the "oldest profession" and hasn't been curbed since then. As long as men have penises, they will want to use them.

Instead of shaming these long held practices, maybe everyone should grow up and realize that for a lot of people, life is not awesome and .... happens for a variety of reasons. It is far easier to assist people that might not be in a great situation (Either drugs or being a prostitute) than it is to vilify and demonize them, especially when they are doing something that is "natural" in terms of it's prevalence throughout human history.


Also, when things like drugs and prostitution get legalized, the use of each drops because it doesn't have that "Danger" attached to it.

I would never be on board with the legalization of harder drugs beyond grass, especially the more devastating drugs like heroin and oxy and crack and coke. I would prefer that we just take people arrested for manufacturing and selling them and throw them off of a cliff over a pit of rusty rebar, society doesn't need those type of parasites (The sellers).

[skins]

Originally Posted by GGG

Legalization of prostitution leads to an increase in human trafficing

Originally Posted by Mike F

Do you have a study or something similar showing this?

Just did a quick google search, but here is one (emphasis added by me):

The analysis shows that in countries where prostitution is legal, larger inflows of trafficking abound (controlling for other relevant determinants of human trafficking).
This seems intuitive. Legalized prostitution leads to more prostitution. For any given share of trafficked women among prostitutes, more prostitution also leads to a larger number of trafficked women. Of course, legalization could reduce the share of trafficked women, so that even with a larger market, the number of trafficked women would decrease. The figure shows that this is not the case.

http://www.fairobserver.com/article/...oad-regulation

[foshizzle11]

What are the stats on human trafficking in Canada or the US or even Mexico like? Those look like countries in Europe, nothing for North America. I think it is probably easier to trafficking in Europe between European countries than in Canada no?

Just wondering if we have any sort of stats for where we live. Not that I support this or anything, just curious how different or the same it is in Canada.

[skins]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I am of the mind that non serious vices (Drugs, Prostitution) should be legalized, regulated and taxed.....Similarly with prostitution, it will allow for a safer work environment (for both the Jon's and the workers)

How do you ensure that people actually use these "Safe Work Environments"? I think the vast majority of prostitutes would prefer not to be in their current profession if drug addictions, abuse or worse situations hadn't forced them into it. If they actually thought they had a choice, why not choose a safer job like working in a restaurant. I don't buy the argument that they enjoy what they do.

Originally Posted by Caged Great

...they are doing something that is "natural" in terms of it's prevalence throughout human history.

Natural? The physical act yes. But you're removing that act from the context in which it normally takes place. Given that the vast majority of people in society do not sell their bodies for sex, I don't see how you can call it natural in any way.

[SebC]

I wonder how much the human trafficking increase holds for countries that are geographically isolated. I would assume that if it sufficiently difficult to traffic people, then the substitution effect can be bigger than the volume effect.

"Controlling for other relative determinants" means that applying the generalized conclusion specifically to Canada could be erroneous if there are interactions between those controlled factors and the effect of legalized prostitution under specific circumstances.

(I'm also not sure if a prostitute coming to Canada voluntarily but without a work permit counts as human trafficking... in that case, she's not a victim, she's just displacing work from Canadians and not paying taxes.)

[SebC]

Originally Posted by skins

How do you ensure that people actually use these "Safe Work Environments"? I think the vast majority of prostitutes would prefer not to be in their current profession if drug addictions, abuse or worse situations hadn't forced them into it. If they actually thought they had a choice, why not choose a safer job like working in a restaurant. I don't buy the argument that they enjoy what they do.

Maybe because she'd make way more money as a prostitute, and frankly I don't find it that hard to believe that it might be more enjoyable too. As for the "safe working environments" thing, that can be acheived by legalizing licensed brothels and banning outcalls.

Originally Posted by skins

Natural? The physical act yes. But you're removing that act from the context in which it normally takes place. Given that the vast majority of people in society do not sell their bodies for sex, I don't see how you can call it natural in any way.

Not overtly... but when an attractive young woman marries a rich old man, what do you think she's doing? If you take someone on an expensive date and get lucky, isn't that almost the same thing? Heck, there's even evidence of animals that "sell" sex.

[flamesfever]

I worry it may contribute to increased family breakup.

For example, wife has series of headaches, and husband reacts by going to house of ill repute. Wife finds out and divorces husband.

I think society's moral views on this issue does play a part in reducing the tendency of many husbands to stray from the marriage bed.

I think you have to weigh this against the advantages of safety, health issues, etc.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I worry it may contribute to increased family breakup.

For example, wife has series of headaches, and husband reacts by going to house of ill repute. Wife finds out and divorces husband.

I think society's moral views on this issue does play a part in reducing the tendency of many husbands to stray from the marriage bed.

I think you have to weigh this against the advantages of safety, health issues, etc.

Netherlands has a fairly low divorce rate, at least 15% lower than the US. I'm not sure if there is a correlation between the two.

[JonDuke]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Netherlands has a fairly low divorce rate, at least 15% lower than the US. I'm not sure if there is a correlation between the two.

I would bet that's because they smoke fat ganja bowls with each other to solve their problems instead of visiting the cat house.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I worry it may contribute to increased family breakup.

For example, wife has series of headaches, and husband reacts by going to house of ill repute. Wife finds out and divorces husband.

I think society's moral views on this issue does play a part in reducing the tendency of many husbands to stray from the marriage bed.

I think you have to weigh this against the advantages of safety, health issues, etc.

So you don't think that it may be time to adjust societies view on the 'evil' of sex instead of continuing to demonize it?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I worry it may contribute to increased family breakup.

For example, wife has series of headaches, and husband reacts by going to house of ill repute. Wife finds out and divorces husband.

I think society's moral views on this issue does play a part in reducing the tendency of many husbands to stray from the marriage bed.

I think you have to weigh this against the advantages of safety, health issues, etc.

So you think the only reason these guys are not cheating on their spouses is that they could get arrested for picking up a hooker?

If that's the case, then I think it is pretty obvious that the family is likely better off with a divorce than a guy who just sticks around because there is some place warm to stick it.

[skins]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

So you don't think that it may be time to adjust societies view on the 'evil' of sex instead of continuing to demonize it?

Where do you get the idea that sex is demonized in society? When I look at advertising and media today, it seems to me like it's celebrated.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by skins

Where do you get the idea that sex is demonized in society? When I look at advertising and media today, it seems to me like it's celebrated.

The notion of sex, but not sex.

You go ahead and explain why sex in a movie makes it R-rated, while you can pump loads of violence and ogre and still squeak out a PG-13?
Sex is absolutely demonised. It's fine to hint or suggest at, but the act of sex is worse than the act of killing in most media.

[skins]

Originally Posted by SebC

Maybe because she'd make way more money as a prostitute, and frankly I don't find it that hard to believe that it might be more enjoyable too.

She might make more money, she might not. Pimps probably take a cut and I imagine drug habits aren't cheap. Take home income could be comparable or less. Obviously our views differ on this subject, but please explain what part of being a prostitute would be enjoyable (of course taking into account the type of clientele they deal with). Man...the boss is really riding me today!

Originally Posted by SebC

Not overtly... but when an attractive young woman marries a rich old man, what do you think she's doing? If you take someone on an expensive date and get lucky, isn't that almost the same thing? Heck, there's even evidence of animals that "sell" sex.

I get what you're saying and I thought of those examples myself, but I think it oversimplifies things. A young woman could have a lot of reasons for marrying a rich old man. But even if its explicit purpose is the continual exchange of money for sex, the woman is doing so willingly. Not the same as an abused immigrant whose pimp won't give her passport back. Not the same at all.

I've done a bit of searching and haven't been able to find any stats on quantity of human trafficking in Canada, although most articles say the many victims of trafficking are channeled to the sex trade.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/majority-of-human-trafficking-for-sex-trade-rcmp-says-1.552137

[SebC]

Originally Posted by skins

She might make more money, she might not. Pimps probably take a cut and I imagine drug habits aren't cheap. Take home income could be comparable or less. Obviously our views differ on this subject, but please explain what part of being a prostitute would be enjoyable (of course taking into account the type of clientele they deal with). Man...the boss is really riding me today!

"Drug habits" aren't overhead costs for a prostitute you know. As for what part of being a prostitute would be enjoyable... I dunno, maybe getting paid hundreds per hour to have sex? Look, I'm not saying they'd do it if it weren't for the money, but you can say that about a lot of people in a lot of different jobs. You can't omit the economic rewards as a factor in rational decision-making.

Originally Posted by skins

I get what you're saying and I thought of those examples myself, but I think it oversimplifies things. A young woman could have a lot of reasons for marrying a rich old man. But even if its explicit purpose is the continual exchange of money for sex, the woman is doing so willingly. Not the same as an abused immigrant whose pimp won't give her passport back. Not the same at all.

Obviously, I don't want to encourage that, but there are ways to address that without criminalizing victimless behaviour. For example, we could make it so that prosititutes get a license that has their photo but protects their personal information, and it would be the client's responsibility to check their license (to confirm that the prostitute is legit and adult)... heck, the city of Calgary already licenses "escorts", and we all know what that means.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by skins

She might make more money, she might not. Pimps probably take a cut and I imagine drug habits aren't cheap. Take home income could be comparable or less. Obviously our views differ on this subject, but please explain what part of being a prostitute would be enjoyable (of course taking into account the type of clientele they deal with). Man...the boss is really riding me today!

You're making some pretty big assumptions about sex workers there. The truth is that most of them don't have pimps or drug habits, and a lot of them prefer being able to set their own hours and make more money in less time than they would in an office or a restaurant. Do they "enjoy" it? Some do. Some don't. Just like in any other job.

As for people framing it as them "selling their bodies," do you say the same thing about masseuses, athletes, and manual laborers. Do lawyers and engineers "sell their brains"? Or do they all just sell their services?

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Thor

Its the devil you know, better we control and regulate an industry that will continue to exist regardless of the law, so I would want this legalized.

Give our police more resources to focus on human trafficking.

Somebody playing devil's advocate could say that human trafficking is going to happen regardless of the law. Murder happens regardless of the law.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by gargamel

You're making some pretty big assumptions about sex workers there. The truth is that most of them don't have pimps or drug habits, and a lot of them prefer being able to set their own hours and make more money in less time than they would in an office or a restaurant. Do they "enjoy" it? Some do. Some don't. Just like in any other job.

As for people framing it as them "selling their bodies," do you say the same thing about masseuses, athletes, and manual laborers. Do lawyers and engineers "sell their brains"? Or do they all just sell their services?

Any statistical backup to the statement most prostitutes dont have pimps or drug problems and like the work. Per the link below 80% of prostitutes would like to get out. Trying to frame it as just another profession is false.

http://sex-crimes.laws.com/prostitut...ion-statistics

There is likely a small portion of people who enjoy their chosen jobs but the majority are trapped in a cycle of abuse, drug use, and poverty. This is why Harm Reduction has to be the goal of all laws.

The problem with legalization is that it increases demand for prostitutes. This in turn increases the number of trafficed prostitutes and Legal Prostitutes. Legalization offers more protection however studies linked in this thread have shown that the increase in demand dwarfs the effect of increased protections and increases human trafficing.

So while an engineer may be selling his or her brain legalizing engineering doesnt lead to an increase in human trafficing.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by strombad

The notion of sex, but not sex.

You go ahead and explain why sex in a movie makes it R-rated, while you can pump loads of violence and ogre and still squeak out a PG-13?
Sex is absolutely demonised. It's fine to hint or suggest at, but the act of sex is worse than the act of killing in most media.

Sad post is sad.