Interesting thought: Maybe Burke does not hire a GM

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

Did anyone else catch the Sportsnet preview show?

John Shannon had an interesting theory where Burke stays as the President of Hockey Ops, and hires a couple of AGMs and assigns them their own tasks.

If (big if) this does happen, could it be Gillman and maybe one of Poulin/Loiselle?

Burke will hire a "GM", but it will be in name only. Honestly, what is the difference between having 2 AGMs and President making the decisions or having a GM and an AGM with the president making decisions. It's semantics only

[BigTuna]

Let Burke do the trades. Man is a master of trades.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Let Burke do the trades. Man is a master of trades.

Really? He raped us on the Phaneuf deal, but other than that, what great trades has he made? I think he's missed as many as he's made.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by New Era

Really? He raped us on the Phaneuf deal, but other than that, what great trades has he made? I think he's missed as many as he's made.

Beauchemin for Lupul/Gardiner. Schenn for JVR. Franson for free. Kessel, ETC.

He built a young core through trades.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I'll give you the JVR deal. Good move for Toronto. But Burke got raped on the Kessel deal. Also, he gave up Beuachemin who is the top defenseman on the top team in the NHL. Yeah, he got back a couple of "good" players, but I think he gave up the best player, one that would have solidified the Leafs blueline. I'm also not at all enamored with Toronto's young core. Pretty mediocre team if you ask me. But then again, he did leave the Leafs with Tyler Biggs. What more needs to be said?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Burke will hire a "GM", but it will be in name only. Honestly, what is the difference between having 2 AGMs and President making the decisions or having a GM and an AGM with the president making decisions. It's semantics only

"Making decisions" is surprisingly vague in this context, and your presentation suggests that you have some sort of insight into the precise management structure for the Calgary Flames. Are all "decisions" in hockey operations the same kinds of decisions? Do all fit the same set of criteria? Is there no chance that the variety of these decisions can be effectively distributed in a committee?

It's not "semantics". As I understand things—based on the information that has been published, Burke intends to oversee the implementation of a vision for the long-term future of the hockey team. He intends to hire a competent and qualified General Manager, and an AGM to take that vision, and to fill it and administer it by way of player and personnel acquisitions and management.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by New Era

I'll give you the JVR deal. Good move for Toronto. But Burke got raped on the Kessel deal. Also, he gave up Beuachemin who is the top defenseman on the top team in the NHL. Yeah, he got back a couple of "good" players, but I think he gave up the best player, one that would have solidified the Leafs blueline. I'm also not at all enamored with Toronto's young core. Pretty mediocre team if you ask me. But then again, he did leave the Leafs with Tyler Biggs. What more needs to be said?

Beauchemin sucked in Toronto. Great value for a UFA bust. Why couldn't Beauchemin do anything in Toronto? Now you're predicting he'd be so great in helping them?

And LOL at getting "Raped" in the Kessel deal. 21 year-old future superstar. Of course he cost a lot. Burke was bang-on in predicting how good Kessel would become. Kessel was never expected to do this. Not even close. He's a couple of points from being the top NHl scorer the past 3 years.

He also drafted Kadri and Rielly.

[FlamesAddiction]

Wasn't it only a couple of weeks before the Flames hired Burke that Burke said in an interview that he wanted to be a GM again? Or was in just to get back into management.... I thought he said specifically GM though.

I know he also said that he wasn't hired by the Flames to be a GM and he has no intention to, but I wonder if the past few weeks have put the GM bug back in him.

Personally, I would be fine with that.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

"Making decisions" is surprisingly vague in this context, and your presentation suggests that you have some sort of insight into the precise management structure for the Calgary Flames. Are all "decisions" in hockey operations the same kinds of decisions? Do all fit the same set of criteria? Is there no chance that the variety of these decisions can be effectively distributed in a committee?

It's not "semantics". As I understand things—based on the information that has been published, Burke intends to oversee the implementation of a vision for the long-term future of the hockey team. He intends to hire a competent and qualified General Manager, and an AGM to take that vision, and to fill it and administer it by way of player and personnel acquisitions and management.

I'm not presenting it in any light. Your reading a connotation that wasn't intended. I'm simply saying that as a group making decisions, what difference is there whether we call one a GM or AGM? Burke could hand out areas of responsibility the same either way

[T@T]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Wasn't it only a couple of weeks before the Flames hired Burke that Burke said in an interview that he wanted to be a GM again? Or was in just to get back into management.... I thought he said specifically GM though.

I know he also said that he wasn't hired by the Flames to be a GM and he has no intention to, but I wonder if the past few weeks have put the GM bug back in him.

Personally, I would be fine with that.

He also said he liked Feaster and the work he's done with the flames...couple of months later ...poof!

Between his lies and treatment/mouthing off about players he's getting harder and harder to stomach. Sooner or later someone in the media will grow a set and call him out on this BS.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by New Era

I'll give you the JVR deal. Good move for Toronto. But Burke got raped on the Kessel deal. Also, he gave up Beuachemin who is the top defenseman on the top team in the NHL. Yeah, he got back a couple of "good" players, but I think he gave up the best player, one that would have solidified the Leafs blueline. I'm also not at all enamored with Toronto's young core. Pretty mediocre team if you ask me. But then again, he did leave the Leafs with Tyler Biggs. What more needs to be said?

Beauchiman was terrible in Toronto and Lupul was brutal in Anaheim but both players really turned it around. Gardiner being added to the trade makes it a clear win for Toronto in my eyes.

Burke was wrong in his evaluation of his team when he gave up those picks but he was right that Kessel is an elite talent and special player. He drafted Rielly and Kadri with high picks which both look good and turned Schenn into JVR.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I'm not presenting it in any light. Your reading a connotation that wasn't intended. I'm simply saying that as a group making decisions, what difference is there whether we call one a GM or AGM? Burke could hand out areas of responsibility the same either way

Think of it this way. Traditionally, NHL General Managerial positions have also been tied to the Vice-Presidency of Hockey Operations. A title which itself likely entails a whole set of criteria and responsibilities distinct from what we tend to see as spectators speculating on the work of GMs. I think Burke has probably assumed all of these types of responsibilities in his title, effectively eliminating the need for a VP, and the rest of the more visible managerial work will be primarily tasked to the next GM.

I suspect that there is much, MUCH more to all three of these positions—Hockey Ops CEO, GM, and AGM—than any of us sees from the outside looking in. Furthermore, it is also quite likely that each team distributes these responsibilities within the admin. group differently, and depending on the personnel in place. My point is that we don't have any reason to expect the next GM to be no more than a figure-head as you have suggested. Without knowing how the hierarchy is designed, we simply don't know how it works, but I am happy to take Burke at his word when he asserts that he is determined to hire a smart, qualified candidate to assume the chief managerial responsibilities, which includes overseeing the draft, and player, training, and coaching personnel.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Beauchemin sucked in Toronto. Great value for a UFA bust. Why couldn't Beauchemin do anything in Toronto? Now you're predicting he'd be so great in helping them?

And LOL at getting "Raped" in the Kessel deal. 21 year-old future superstar. Of course he cost a lot. Burke was bang-on in predicting how good Kessel would become. Kessel was never expected to do this. Not even close. He's a couple of points from being the top NHl scorer the past 3 years.

He also drafted Kadri and Rielly.

Anaheim won the Beauchemin trade as much as Toronto did. He was almost a Norris nominee last year and is an important player on one of the best teams in the league. Everything about Beauchemin being bad in Toronto can be said about Lupul in Anaheim as well

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Think of it this way. Traditionally, NHL General Managerial positions have also been tied to the Vice-Presidency of Hockey Operations. A title which itself likely entails a whole set of criteria and responsibilities distinct from what we tend to see as spectators speculating on the work of GMs. I think Burke has probably assumed all of these types of responsibilities in his title, effectively eliminating the need for a VP, and the rest of the more visible managerial work will be primarily tasked to the next GM.

I suspect that there is much, MUCH more to all three of these positions—Hockey Ops CEO, GM, and AGM—than any of us sees from the outside looking in. Furthermore, it is also quite likely that each team distributes these responsibilities within the admin. group differently, and depending on the personnel in place. My point is that we don't have any reason to expect the next GM to be no more than a figure-head as you have suggested. Without knowing how the hierarchy is designed, we simply don't know how it works, but I am happy to take Burke at his word when he asserts that he is determined to hire a smart, qualified candidate to assume the chief managerial responsibilities, which includes overseeing the draft, and player, training, and coaching personnel.

I agree, but I'm asserting that precisely because we don't know specifically how responsibilities will be broken down, the names are window dressing. Speculating on whether he hires a GM or two AGMs probably means little to the actual
Operations

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by neo45

Anaheim won the Beauchemin trade as much as Toronto did. He was almost a Norris nominee last year and is an important player on one of the best teams in the league. Everything about Beauchemin being bad in Toronto can be said about Lupul in Anaheim as well

So if Lupul for Beauchiman is a wash then Gardiner tips the scale in Torontos favor. He is a solid young piece moving forward and a solid trade chip

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So if Lupul for Beauchiman is a wash then Gardiner tips the scale in Torontos favor. He is a solid young piece moving forward and a solid trade chip

Who said Beauchemin for Lupul is a wash? Beauchemin is much better

[Resolute 14]

Given Burke won't be willing to give up control (imnsho), anybody he hires is an AGM, regardless of title. That said, all signs seem to be pointing to Burke trying to convince Nieuwendyk to take the job come summer.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by neo45

Who said Beauchemin for Lupul is a wash? Beauchemin is much better

So much better than Lupul? Really? Lupul's been PPG the previous 2 seasons.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by neo45

Anaheim won the Beauchemin trade as much as Toronto did. He was almost a Norris nominee last year and is an important player on one of the best teams in the league. Everything about Beauchemin being bad in Toronto can be said about Lupul in Anaheim as well

The Beauchemin situation in Anaheim might be the worst asset management move the last few years. Anaheim had Beauchemin. He wanted to stay. They let him go as a UFA because they thought he wanted too much $. 18 months later they change their mind and give up Lupul+Gardiner. And they only gave-up Gardiner because they had Shultz in their system.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

So much better than Lupul? Really? Lupul's been PPG the previous 2 seasons.

Ah yes, the Hemsky defense. Being PPG is great and all, but the guy can't stay healthy. Hasn't cracked 70 gms in a season since 08/09.