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Old 01-20-2014, 11:02 AM   #21
macrov
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the Pens opened their new building in 2010. They didn't seem to get much of a bump in value from it; there was an increase from 2009 to 2010 of about 5.5%

The Devils opened their new building in 2007 - that coincided with an increase in valuation of ~25%

The new CBA and TV deals seem to have had a much more substantial effect across the league
I crunched numbers a few months ago...a new arena has negative value to the franchise. Hence why they 'need' a subsidy

100 luxury boxes at 200k per season is 20 mln. You'd lose about 4000 seats at 20 per game (nose bleeds) and add 1000 at 50 game. So about 19 mln profit before tax.

Throw a cost of capital of 5% on the borrowing of a new arena at 300mln and a cost of 12% on your own equity of 100mln...and you're at 27mln in additional arena cost per year.

So...19mln-27mln is -8mln. That would reduce profit by 8mln per year. How do they bridge the gap?
1) ticket fees of 4$ a game would bring in 2mln
2) no idea how much a concert brings in but assume its 5$ a ticket; so 50k per concert. Even an additional 20 concerts only bring in 1mln.
3) ask for govt hand out
4) Call it a cost of business. If Murray bought the team for 19 mln and it is worth 400mln now...he's not not doing too bad on an investment he did "for the community." The arena is simply a necessary cap ex investment required for his business and has a cost associated with it.

If they do 1 and 2, they're down to 6mln per year in economic losses and positive cash flow if you ignore the 100mln equity investment. So the flames could ask the government to pitch as little as 0 and as much as 150mln in low interest or no interest loans. The value of 150mln in government interest free loans is 7.5mln, enough to make an arena viable.
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Old 01-20-2014, 12:35 PM   #22
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Thanks for posting this. I had !missed the other thread, so this was news to me
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Old 01-20-2014, 01:01 PM   #23
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4) Call it a cost of business. If Murray bought the team for 19 mln and it is worth 400mln now...he's not not doing too bad on an investment he did "for the community." The arena is simply a necessary cap ex investment required for his business and has a cost associated with it.
Murray didn't buy the team.. It was a completely different ownership group back then, and a pretty strong list of community leaders:

Original Ownership group:
Nelson Skalbania
Doc Seaman
B.J. Seaman
Harley Hotchkiss
Norm Green
Ralph Scurfield
Norman Kwong


Does anyone know what ownership percentages are? Whenever I hear reference to our ownership group it is always Murray Edwards name that comes up. I always assumed it was a balanced partnership among the current ownership group of:

BJ. Seaman
Murray Edwards
Alvin G. Libin
Allan P. Markin
Jeffrey J. McCaig
Clayton H. Riddell


http://flames.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=87799
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Old 01-20-2014, 01:44 PM   #24
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Yeah they are incorrect. Going by metropolitan population, Calgary is the sixth smallest market. Edmonton, Winnipeg, Buffalo, Ottawa, and Carolina are lower than us.
No, it's right. Calgary is third. Ottawa is still slightly larger, Buffalo technically smaller, but that doesnt include the Canadian side. Raleigh is quite a bit larger and in the centre of a state with 10 million people.
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Old 01-20-2014, 01:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by RM14 View Post
Murray didn't buy the team.. It was a completely different ownership group back then, and a pretty strong list of community leaders:

Original Ownership group:
Nelson Skalbania
Doc Seaman
B.J. Seaman
Harley Hotchkiss
Norm Green
Ralph Scurfield
Norman Kwong


Does anyone know what ownership percentages are? Whenever I hear reference to our ownership group it is always Murray Edwards name that comes up. I always assumed it was a balanced partnership among the current ownership group of:

BJ. Seaman
Murray Edwards
Alvin G. Libin
Allan P. Markin
Jeffrey J. McCaig
Clayton H. Riddell


http://flames.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=87799
I think Edwards is slowly buying out the partners, such that its not even anymore. He bought out most of Hotchkiss's 22% stake. I think he's considered the "majority owner"
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:04 PM   #26
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No, it's right. Calgary is third. Ottawa is still slightly larger, Buffalo technically smaller, but that doesnt include the Canadian side. Raleigh is quite a bit larger and in the centre of a state with 10 million people.
Calgary overtook Ottawa in the 2012 Stats Canada CMA projection.

Going off of official numbers, Raliegh MSA is listed at 1,188,564 as of the 2012 projection and you are right that Buffalo doesn't include the Canadian but even if you were to add Niagara Falls, ON to the total it wouldn't surpass Calgary.

Of course, MSA and CMA boundaries (especially in the States) are often arbitrary and not very comparable. The Raliegh MSA should likely include Durham/Chapel Hill and the Calgary CMA should include Okotoks and the MD of Foothills but they do not.

(apologies for the off topic demographic geekery)
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Old 01-20-2014, 05:23 PM   #27
Magnum PEI
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Well looks like Calgary has surpassed Ottawa, neat.
Raleigh and Buffalo are larger though. The Forbes link has Raleigh at 2 million and the eastern niagara Peninsula likely has 3/4 of a million people.
CMA is mostly a problem in the western states where the counties tend to be larger.
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