Canadian Franchises

[habernac]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Canadian team owners, just like the majority of Canadians, love the game of hockey. American team owners love the business of hockey and most Americans don't care about hockey. This explains most of it. It has been stated many times by players that playing in US is much easier on them than playing in Canada by not being in the spotlight all the time. Players choose to go to a US team when given a choice and matching financials. Large US teams in metropolitan centres have additional attraction for the talent because of what those metropolitan centres offer to the players and their families. Better climate is the additional attraction to hockey players and their families offered by the southern teams. Overall, US has a better magnet for better players that any Canadian team can offer.

Notable exceptions are Pittsburgh and Detroit, as both cities are lousy places. But Pittsburgh has been through a horrible slump and was able to recover only by winning the Crosby sweepstakes.

Detroit, however, remains a mystery to me. How the hell have they managed to maintain a competitive team throughout all these years without tanking and without drafting from the very top is beyond my comprehension. I just revere their management and ownership systems. What is mind-boggling to me is why could Canadian teams not learn from them something?

Pittsburgh has recovered nicely from being the industrial steel city to now becoming a solid college town. I don't think it's as brutal as some people make it out to be.

[Sylvanfan]

I've long thought about posting this thread myself...Canadian teams are less competitive than they've every been despite cost certainty and being economically viable.

I personally think that it comes down to owners wanting to make profits. If the teams make moves and sell short term hope it will result in higher ticket sales and keeping the bottom line looking good. For American markets where there aren't as many hard core fans who track every move or media coverage, teams may focus more on finding ways to get on ice results to get the attention of it's market. So perhaps owners are prodding managers too much to improve the team now, or create hype, rather than let them focus on just building the most competitive team. I don't know how well Calgary would accept a quiet GM like Poile taking 6 years to set up a competitive franchise as an example. Getting in a guy like Burke who's loud and wants attention and screaming that he'll get it done faster may keep more attention on the team.

The other factor right now is that the good free agents are not signing in Canada. The market price for players in Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Detroit, or the New York Rangers is not the same as it is in Edmonton or Calgary. The NHLPA might as well no longer exist as players in large seem to be doing what they want and not taking the best pay cheque in a lot of cases. Whereas under Goodenow every player was more or less directly to get paid as much as you can because it will set the market for the other guys. I'm firmly of the opinion now that the Canadian teams were almost in a better situation pre lockout where they had a lot more player control until the guys were 31 years old and market value for the players in certain age groups seemed to have more consistency.

[CliffFletcher]

It's not just players. I think a lot of NHL executives prefer to work in the U.S. If the money is the same, San Jose, St. Louis, and Phoenix are going to be more appealing to a lot of guys than Ottawa, Winnipeg, and Calgary. And while Canadians and their wives usually don't have a problem moving to the U.S., a lot of Americans - especially American women for some reason - seem to have a real problem with the idea of moving out of country.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by codynw

Ottawa may not be good, but I believe they're going to make the playoffs. They'll probably push out Toronto.

I disagree. The 6 teams battling for the last 2 spots are likely Detroit, Carolina, Rangers, Toronto, Ottawa and New Jersey. I think Detroit is the favourite of the group, while of the remaining 5 teams, Ottawa is likely battling New Jersey for the least points from here on out.

I've watched quite a few of Ottawa's games this year and Spezza has been disappointing and Ryan has shown, well... very little intensity to be honest... and that's not because of Burke's comments!

[dino7c]

I wouldn't play in Canada either, #### weather and fans on your back constantly....Poor Jaybo was the best d-man on the team by a country mile and had people calling him left and right because they are jelly of his money

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I wouldn't play in Canada either, #### weather and fans on your back constantly....Poor Jaybo was the best d-man on the team by a country mile and had people calling him left and right because they are jelly of his money

You nailed it man, he played amazing at such a high level that even we as fans couldn't see he was doing an amazing job his entire tenure here.

[Caged Great]

Canadian teams have too much pressure to be competitive. Teams like Boston, LA, Chicago, Pittsburgh could suck badly without huge ramifications from their fan bases.

Canadian teams always take shortcuts to try and be awesome. Those shortcuts blunt the ability to be successful long term. Because of that, we all suck. The Canadiens, Leafs and Canucks are not going anywhere near winning a cup in the next 5 years. The Jets aren't quite bad enough and aren't quite good enough to do anything. They need to jettison their crap and rebuild properly. The Oilers do not do anything right in how they play the game. If they did, they might be fighting for a playoff spot now, instead of fighting for #1. The Senators should also be rebuilding, but they took a shortcut getting Ryan, which doesn't really help them enough.

Finally, we come to the Flames. The only team that has actually done most of it right recently. We have depth of lower line talent, and no older players on the NHL team worth trying to supplement with other decent players. No excuses to not build it correctly. They need high end talent, but that will come in the draft the next couple years. We all just have to have some patience so they don't feel like they need to rush things stupidly.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Yoho

You nailed it man, he played amazing at such a high level that even we as fans couldn't see he was doing an amazing job his entire tenure here.

down in the US he could play terrible and wouldn't get called out at the grocery store

besides he was good here I dont care what anybody says, I don't think he just learned how to play well over the summer...the terrible team had a lot to do with his poor numbers

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Yoho

You nailed it man, he played amazing at such a high level that even we as fans couldn't see he was doing an amazing job his entire tenure here.

Your sarcasm failed to hide just how jelly you are

[Meers]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Finally, we come to the Flames. The only team that has actually done most of it right recently.

Sigh.

No. The Flames have not done most of it right recently.

Look at the standings.

The Flames are in horrible shape.

It could have been avoided by a quality GM. A team in today's NHL can retool without tanking.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Meers

It could have been avoided by a quality GM. A team in today's NHL can retool without tanking.

The time for re-tooling was 4 or 5 seasons ago. Once Iginla and Kipper hit the wrong side of 30, and it became apparent we had little talent coming through the system, we were in rebuild territory.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Meers

Sigh.

No. The Flames have not done most of it right recently.

Look at the standings.

The Flames are in horrible shape.

It could have been avoided by a quality GM. A team in today's NHL can retool without tanking.

I don't think standings have anything to do with it.

It's been proven. You need to pick top 5 to get elite talent these days. All the Stanley Cup winners have done it lately. This applies to Calgary perhaps more than any other in the league.

Each Stanley Cup winning team has more than one true star. Even when we made the finals in 2004 and went on our little run of above average hockey after the lockout, our only true stars were Iginla and Kipper. We never got that #1 centre, and really, there is no other way to acquire one outside the draft.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I wouldn't play in Canada either, #### weather and fans on your back constantly....Poor Jaybo was the best d-man on the team by a country mile and had people calling him left and right because they are jelly of his money

I'm not sure which is more embarrassing for you - the fact that you actually think people criticized Bouwmeester because they are jealous of his money, or the fact that you actually used the word "jelly" like that.

I defended Bouwmeester as much as anyone here. But he flat out never came close to living up to his contract. A good portion of the criticism was warranted - particularly as it related to his lack of offence.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Meers

Sigh.

No. The Flames have not done most of it right recently.

Look at the standings.

The Flames are in horrible shape.

It could have been avoided by a quality GM. A team in today's NHL can retool without tanking.

I base my thoughts on "doing it right" based off the other teams that have won the cup over the past handful of years since the 07.

With the exception of Detroit, each team acquired depth, and then skill in the lead up to their winning the cup. Each of the Hawks, Kings, Ducks, and Bruins acquired most of their depth players and then added star talent (In the Hawks case Towes and Kane, Kings with Doughty and Quick along with Richards/Carter, Ducks with Niedermayer and Pronger in addition to Getzlaf/Perry/Penner, and the Bruins with guys like Lucic, Marchand, and Krejic).

The current Flames have Monahan/Sven/Gaudreau/Jankowski/Poirier/Klimchuk that all look to have top 6 upside. Additionally, they will likely add a potential star calibre forward this year, and probably next year (It's doubtful Ekblad will be on the board when we pick thanks to Edmonton). With the lower end of the roster, they have Colborne, Knight, Ferland, Bouma, Reinhart, Harrison, Arnold, Agostino, Hanowski and Granlund that all have the potential to be decent lower line guys.

Defense is a concern, but can be remedied with several top end picks each of this year and next.

The current Flames are bad. Very bad. That contrarily is actually a positive thing in terms of the rebuild. There is absolutely no loyalty to keep any of the guys over Backlund's age. They are all not good enough. That would make it ridiculous to overpay for assets like Ottawa did in getting Bobby Ryan. There's nobody on the team to have them play with yet. In a few years, maybe, but now no.

We just have to endure the suck for the time being. It blows entirely, but if they do it right they could build themselves a contending team that could vie for a cup repeatedly like Chicago.

[Poe969]

The leafs are in bad shape because Burke isn't there any more. In a couple of years the Flames will be ahead of the leafs and all will be balanced within the force

[Sylvanfan]

Before we start congratulating the Flames for doing it right....let's see what they do over the next 18 months. I suspect they will make a short sighted move or two to keep current interest in the team.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Before we start congratulating the Flames for doing it right....let's see what they do over the next 18 months. I suspect they will make a short sighted move or two to keep current interest in the team.

If you've done step A alright, that doesn't mean step B, C and D will also be done correctly. I also don't have any faith in this team not to do something stupid like Ottawa did with Ryan in the next 12 months. I just hope that it isn't too detrimental.

[PeteMoss]

There was a way to avoid having to do step A or to do without going right into the basement to do it. I don't know if he'd have done it due to the age... but if you trade Iginla to the Leafs and land the Kessel package and you can avoid being completely terrible.

The Flames right now are right where the Oilers were four years ago. The Flames have been terribly managed and that got them to this point. They haven't done much of anything right.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

As a season ticket holder, I know the demand for season tickets has dropped (a person on the waiting list moved from 450 to 122 this year - a sharp uptick compared to previous years) and trying to sell tickets is getting tougher. Our seats beside us went for $10 a piece last night (section 217 row 20) and the two seats to the other side of us were empty.

I hate to use my one off situation and extrapolate that to everyone else but that seems odd to me. I have said before I have sold roughly 10 games online (and not just premium Boston/Edmonton game) and all but one have sold for more than my season ticket holder price. And that likely had to do with me putting it up day of and it being Columbus. My tickets are right near there and I have not had to sell them that cheap for any game.


As for the question in the OP I think it is largely cyclical/"bad luck" that all are bad right now. 10 years ago we could have had a Flames- (puke) Oilers-Sens run of Cup winners with the Canucks possibly being there not long ago as well and nothing has changed except for those teams now being mismanaged.

I do think that Canadian franchises can be at a "disadvantage" because they have the money and fan attachment to players that may have them keep teams together longer than they should have, but hard to say if this is a Canadian problem or coincidence with a couple of teams.

As someone pointed out each team is bad for almost different reasons and there is very levels of bad (i.e. I would say Toronto and Vancouver not similar to Calgary or Edmonton at all). If there was one or two reasons common with each team maybe you could point to something but I think that it is just a small group of teams that sometimes can fit into the same broad category.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

Over the long haul, Montreal and Toronto will be fine.

Calgary's fans are fickle. The Flames are still selling out but the wait list for season tickets moved dramatically last year and the team counts on corporate tickets - the longer the team stays on the outside looking in, the harder it will be for companies to justify the expense.

What are you talking about?! I have been on the hothouse for 3 years and have moved up the ladder at the same pace every year including this year. I went from 275 to 187 this year. In addition calgery is second to only Toronto when it comes to head offices for large companies in Canada. Large companies have no issue buying tickets as hockey will always be an event to entertain clients good team or bad. Plus the earning power for people in this city is among the highest in canada which is why it has grown so much in the past 20 years. I think your assumption about calgary is waaaay off