Calgary mother relied on herbal remedies: son died, mother charged

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Slava

Of course she could've taken the child to a clinic, and the doctor would've probably chatted for a couple minutes and said, 'ya, its that time of year and you haven't had a flu shot, so get some rest'.

That sounds a lot more terrible, but honestly how easy would it be to tell the difference between this infection and the flu or a virus? The grandfather seemed to think it was the flu, and if he's right that it was four days that's downright scary. I'm not sure I'd have my kids to a clinic because I would think its 'just the flu' as well.

Agreed. My daughter has never been so sick that I was actually really worried. It's one thing for a kid to be pretty sick, to the point where you think a doctor visit is warranted, quite another to be calling 911. That's why I think it's better to reserve judgement. This story sounds pretty fishy to me, but as a parent, I just don't see how you can withhold medical treatment, especially when it's obviously necessary.

If it turns out that she's a kook that didn't take an obviously sick child to the doctor, then I'm all for the maximum penalty. Necessities of life. First world country. But there are always two sides to the story. Grandfather already listed off a pretty good reason why judgement should be reserved.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Slava

Of course she could've taken the child to a clinic, and the doctor would've probably chatted for a couple minutes and said, 'ya, its that time of year and you haven't had a flu shot, so get some rest'.

That sounds a lot more terrible, but honestly how easy would it be to tell the difference between this infection and the flu or a virus? The grandfather seemed to think it was the flu, and if he's right that it was four days that's downright scary. I'm not sure I'd have my kids to a clinic because I would think its 'just the flu' as well.

Maybe, but this is strep throat, and doctors will recognize that 9 times out of 10 because it presents way different from a cold or a flu.

Normally Strep throat will clear up in a couple of days, so there had to be something else wrong with the kid especially since it sounds like he was bed ridden and then had seizures.

The mother was a stupid cow, if your kid and most kinds have amazing immune systems isn't getting better is three or four days then you take them to the doctor, it doesn't matter if the doctor rolls his eyes, at least he's going to take a look just to avoid a lawsuit later.

Feeding him herbs and roots and seeing him get sicker and not doing anything is not a rational act for a parent.

I've always said that these people that sell natural medicines should have to have the same kind of educational requirement as at least a pharmacist.

That would separate the quacks from the cons trying to make a quick buck.

They should also have to carry malpractice insurance.

[Kelekin]

Herbs that have proven to work are called medicine.

There's some sort of belief in many of these circles (and I unfortunately had to grow up in it) that western medicine is so against plants and herbs and other ways to heal.

Except for the part where when plants and herbs can and do heal, they are ingredients in medicine. Not all medicine is synthetic. I try not to resort to expletives, but honestly...

[TurnedTheCorner]

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

I also like how the National Post tries to describe 17th ave as some sort of odd mecca for these weirdos:

Isn't it? I mean, not for the reasons cited in the article.

But isn't it?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Maybe, but this is strep throat, and doctors will recognize that 9 times out of 10 because it presents way different from a cold or a flu.

Normally Strep throat will clear up in a couple of days, so there had to be something else wrong with the kid especially since it sounds like he was bed ridden and then had seizures.

What thread on science and medicine would be complete without anecdotal evidence to base conclusions? So here's mine. Took my son to the clinic for pretty obvious strep throat, only the doctor doesn't give a prescription straight off because everyone is worried about prescribing antibiotics unnecessarily. They take a swab and will call. Fair enough. We wait a few days and my son can't turn his head because his throat is so swollen. My wide calls the doctor and the doctor said, (aside from no more monkeys jumping on the bed), that yes it is strep throat. Unfortunately now to get a prescription though he would have to come in again, wait at the walk-in and see a doctor for a prescription!

First you have people like me who just don't want to waste everyone's time by sitting there with the sniffles. Then you have a convoluted and might I say ridiculous procedural system that makes it even more dreaded.

Obviously this poor little boy had some major issues. I like to think and hope that I would've taken him to the clinic in a similar position, but the terrifying part is that I really don't know. I'm not some kook who self medicates everything or won't accept medical attention, I just wouldn't want to go unless its really necessary and maybe I would miss that line.

[Machiavelli]

^^Most clinics should have a rapid strep test so that cases like your child's don't happen too often. Of course, the test is not 100% sensitive, but it's better than waiting to be treated. Also, strep is usually pretty obvious if you examine properly.

And there was obviously a communication/follow-up issue in your case. That physician should have called you as soon as she/he got the result, and left a prescription for you...no reason for your son to have to see another doctor, be ill for longer, and use up more health care dollars.

[Minnie]

With my recent bout of strep, they prescribed meds before the swab came back. I was as symptomatic as it gets. However, and don't birth a duck, Ducay lol - that was partly because we have someone that is immunosuppressed in the house, and they prefer not to fool around, thus the reason I was on antibiotics immediately, even before the swab gave them the final 100% reason to say it was strep. I recalled our peds specialists saying it was one of the illnesses we needed to be very careful of, for our household, so I was at the doctor fairly quickly. I pretty much hid out in our room, with my own set of dishes/cutlery etc, for several days, trying not to spread it around.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Slava

What thread on science and medicine would be complete without anecdotal evidence to base conclusions? So here's mine. Took my son to the clinic for pretty obvious strep throat, only the doctor doesn't give a prescription straight off because everyone is worried about prescribing antibiotics unnecessarily. They take a swab and will call. Fair enough. We wait a few days and my son can't turn his head because his throat is so swollen. My wide calls the doctor and the doctor said, (aside from no more monkeys jumping on the bed), that yes it is strep throat. Unfortunately now to get a prescription though he would have to come in again, wait at the walk-in and see a doctor for a prescription!

First you have people like me who just don't want to waste everyone's time by sitting there with the sniffles. Then you have a convoluted and might I say ridiculous procedural system that makes it even more dreaded.

Obviously this poor little boy had some major issues. I like to think and hope that I would've taken him to the clinic in a similar position, but the terrifying part is that I really don't know. I'm not some kook who self medicates everything or won't accept medical attention, I just wouldn't want to go unless its really necessary and maybe I would miss that line.

To add to what Machiavelli said, the standard protocol, that SHOULD be followed, is to swab first and prescribe upon results. All guidelines stress this. Even if presenting with all the clinical symptoms, only 70% are bacterial in nature, so swabs are necessary. Strep is a self limiting infection, it goes away by itself. The reason for treating with antibiotics is to prevent rare complications like rheumatic fever and resulting kidney damage. In and of itself, strep goes away on it's own

If the Doctor on the phone says "yep, is strep" there should be a prescription phoned in at that point. Really, it should have been phoned in the day he got the results. The problem wasn't the swab first, the problem is insisting on a visit to get the treatment

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

To add to what Machiavelli said, the standard protocol, that SHOULD be followed, is to swab first and prescribe upon results. All guidelines stress this. Even if presenting with all the clinical symptoms, only 70% are bacterial in nature, so swabs are necessary. Strep is a self limiting infection, it goes away by itself. The reason for treating with antibiotics is to prevent rare complications like rheumatic fever and resulting kidney damage. In and of itself, strep goes away on it's own

If the Doctor on the phone says "yep, is strep" there should be a prescription phoned in at that point. Really, it should have been phoned in the day he got the results. The problem wasn't the swab first, the problem is insisting on a visit to get the treatment

Right, but according to the grandfather here the boy had been sick for 4 days. So the mom delays a doctors visit for a day or so, not knowing what the illness is and then a swab takes another couple of days?

I'm not at all in the same situation, but I can see how this could happen to a "normal" parent. That's what makes it scary to me.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Maybe, but this is strep throat, and doctors will recognize that 9 times out of 10 because it presents way different from a cold or a flu.

Normally Strep throat will clear up in a couple of days, so there had to be something else wrong with the kid especially since it sounds like he was bed ridden and then had seizures.

The mother was a stupid cow, if your kid and most kinds have amazing immune systems isn't getting better is three or four days then you take them to the doctor, it doesn't matter if the doctor rolls his eyes, at least he's going to take a look just to avoid a lawsuit later.

Feeding him herbs and roots and seeing him get sicker and not doing anything is not a rational act for a parent.

I've always said that these people that sell natural medicines should have to have the same kind of educational requirement as at least a pharmacist.

That would separate the quacks from the cons trying to make a quick buck.

They should also have to carry malpractice insurance.

My favorite "herbal" store story:


A very thin 30 year old diabetic comes to my counter asking for some insulin. As I'm filling the request, I look at his pharmanet profile (a complete history of all meds filed in BC) and notice he hasn't bought strips ever.

I chat with him and ask his history. He is a newly diagnosed type 1 diabetic. He doesn't feel he needs to check his sugars, he knows when they're high. As we are talking, he's actually quite hostile towards me. As I discuss the importance of testing and ask about his diabetic training and find out he was diagnosed by the walk in clinic and sent to the diabetic center for training, dietician, etc, but he never went.

He told me how he recently had gone to a natural health store on Kelowna, where a salesman told him that insulin and glucose machines were pharma's way of keeping him in the system. The answer to all the problems was a special $100 bottle of fenugreek extract that naturally controlled blood sugar.

After doing the "research" on his own, he couldn't believe we would do this to people when the cute was right there. He was going to get it when he had money.

Now I'm not sure what happened to him, but a type 1 diabetic who doesn't test their sugars and stops taking insulin, will die a hundred times out of a hundred. I hope that after he bought it he recognized his high sugars and went to the hospital

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

To add to what Machiavelli said, the standard protocol, that SHOULD be followed, is to swab first and prescribe upon results. All guidelines stress this. Even if presenting with all the clinical symptoms, only 70% are bacterial in nature, so swabs are necessary. Strep is a self limiting infection, it goes away by itself. The reason for treating with antibiotics is to prevent rare complications like rheumatic fever and resulting kidney damage. In and of itself, strep goes away on it's own

If the Doctor on the phone says "yep, is strep" there should be a prescription phoned in at that point. Really, it should have been phoned in the day he got the results. The problem wasn't the swab first, the problem is insisting on a visit to get the treatment

Well, there's actually a clinical score that predicts the probability of Strep infection. If it's very high, as I suspect it was in Slava's son's case, the protocol should be to treat first.

Strep does eventually resolve, but if antibiotics are given within the first couple of days of symptom onset, the duration of symptoms can be shortened by up to 48 hours, which can be significant if the patient is really suffering. Treatment can also reduce the rate transmission to close contacts.

The kidney damage from post-streptococcal glomerulonephritis is actually one of the complications that has not been proven to be prevented by antibiotic treatment.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Slava

Right, but according to the grandfather here the boy had been sick for 4 days. So the mom delays a doctors visit for a day or so, not knowing what the illness is and then a swab takes another couple of days?

I'm not at all in the same situation, but I can see how this could happen to a "normal" parent. That's what makes it scary to me.

I agree there.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Well, there's actually a clinical score that predicts the probability of Strep infection. If it's very high, as I suspect it was in Slava's son's case, the protocol should be to treat first.

Strep does eventually resolve, but if antibiotics are given within the first couple of days of symptom onset, the duration of symptoms can be shortened by up to 48 hours, which can be significant if the patient is really suffering. Treatment can also reduce the rate transmission to close contacts.

The kidney damage from post-streptococcal glomerulonephritis is actually one of the complications that has not been proven to be prevented by antibiotic treatment.

I'm aware of the score, but even with a score of 5, is barely above 50% positive if seen in family practice. According to our guidelines and the BC version of bugs and Drugs (Dr Blondell-Hill), unless complicated, no antibiotics given until confirmed by swab

[FlamesAddiction]

Without knowing the specifics, it's hard to know what she was thinking. If the kid had mild symptoms that rapidly escalated, it's easy to understand how she may have misjudged how serious it was. I know one thing that drives people nuts is the strain on the health care system when people bring their kids in for every sniffle or belly ache. On rare occasions though, serious illnesses begin with mild symptoms.

If this kid was suffering with a high fever or laboured breathing and the mom still relied on home remedies, then I think that she is definitely negligent.

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I'm aware of the score, but even with a score of 5, is barely above 50% positive if seen in family practice. According to our guidelines and the BC version of bugs and Drugs (Dr Blondell-Hill), unless complicated, no antibiotics given until confirmed by swab

That's why clinics should all have the rapid strep test; it's high impractical to swab everyone and wait for results.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

I blame the internet for giving people the opportunity to self-diagnose and natural health blogs which spout a bunch of alternative treatments which they make sound just as effective, if not more so, than regular treatments. Even if they do have some small amount of research to back their claim, they often will use one article that goes against the many, many articles that claim the opposite, and therefore ignoring the consensus of research.

I'm not saying that it's not good to investigate the alternatives, but it should never be in place of the standard treatments when things get really serious. It's hard to say how serious this situation was, which means we shouldn't really pass judgement on the mother and paint everyone who uses homeopathic or alternative treatments with the brush of "neglectful".

I will agree with one line from the article though:

“We don’t need alternative medicine and conventional medicine. We need science-based medicine. Period,” he said.

[Enoch Root]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4X4

Personally, I have a big debate in my head every time my kid is sick. Am I wasting everyone's time by taking her to the doctor when she appears to have a cold?

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Yes....you are.

Honestly 4x4, I'm not trying to be a dick but is she appears to have a cold, why take her to the doctor? What is he going to be able to do for her? I think parents need to trust their gut feeling a bit more. You know your kid pretty well and I think most know when it's serious and when the just picked up "what's going around". Of course as a parent you get upset when your kid isn't feeling well and you want to do everything you can to make them feel better. But more often than not, just letting them rest at home is the right course of action.

My dad was a doctor and his number 1 pet peeve was hypochondriac parents who ran their kids to the doctor the second they sneezed.

Not saying that's exactly what you are doing but if your kid isn't feeling well, give it a couple of days. If it's clear that they are not getting any better or getting worse than yes, absolutely take them in.

But like you said, if it appears she has a cold, why not wait a few days to see what happens?

And 99 times out of a hundred (probably way more) you're right.

However, not always - which makes you criminally wrong.

My daughter was 6. She had been sick for 2 days with what looked from all accounts to be the flu. Absolutely nothing different than standard flu symptoms.

So let's wait a couple more days and if she's still sick, then we can go to the doctor, right?

I don't take kids to the doctor when they get the flu. However my wife is a bit more of a hypochondriac and she wanted to go to a clinic just because. So she took her to the walk-in clinic.

The doctor takes one look at her and orders my wife to take her to Children's immediately.

Turns out my daughter has Kawasaki Disease. I won't go into a bunch of details, but it is typically seen in Japanese boys 5 and under (not white girls). Symptoms are flu-like until spots on the hands, feet and tongue appear, and it can be fatal if not treated by day 3.

Problem is that the spots don't really become noticeable until day 3.

This doctor - who has never seen a case of it before - spots the signs at a very, very early stage and makes the correct diagnosis.

If he thinks "hypochondriac mom, the kid has the flu" and sends her home with a prescription, she's probably dead.

If we wait a couple days before taking her to be seen, she's probably dead (or at least permanently affected).

The doctors at Children's, most of whom had also never seen a case of it before (my daughter was the 6th case ever in Manitoba), were amazed that this doctor recognized it at the early level it was at. He literally saved her life.

As did my wife for being a hypochondriac.

If she had listened to me, we could well have lost our daughter.

Edit: sorry for derailing

[Slava]

Wow! That must have been terrifying!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Slava

Wow! That must have been terrifying!

It was. It all happened very fast but a week in the hospital, when doctors are parading in every hour because they have never seen what your 6 year old daughter has, is beyond disconcerting.

Also, a long period of EKGs followed before she was considered cleared.

But the worst part was knowing that if it were up to my parenting, she might not have made it.

[Itse]

It's really a game of odds.

Take advantage of doctors and proper medicine and you get vastly better odds of surviving and not suffering any long term damage. But only better odds, it's not a sure thing.

That's a great story btw Enoch.

If it's any comfort, the fatality rate of untreated Kawasakis is quite low (wikipedia says 1%), so probably you would not have killed your kid. I have heard however that it can get really scary untreated and easily go past a couple of doctors even after it's clear there's more going on than just a simple flu. So huge kudos to that doctor. Obviously you'd rather have the almost-zero fatality of proper hospital treatment than rolling the die.

(In Finland we get a few dozen cases of Kawasakis every year, so while rare it's not on the same "completely obscure" level. From what I've heard, it's a typical disease they use anecdotally here to remind medical students why you really need to check the kid that comes in with flu-like symptoms, and you'll run into it soon enough if you work in a relevant hospital.)

(Heh, the stuff that sticks in your head after dating a doctor for a while.)