Today's Leafs similar to the 2009/2010 Calgary Flames?

[stemit14]

I completely agree with the comparison... And I could also see a desperate trade to stop the bleeding being made in the same way sutter did for the flames in 2010. They could have the same mentality in Toronto where they will do anything just to make the playoffs again and see what happens just as we did in 2010.

They also have a young player that has showed promise in previous seasons that they have been developing for years but is now struggling and the coach seems to have ran out of patience for in kadri (and Gardner) And the trade rumours are growing louder and louder.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I still don't think they resemble anything close to the 2009-2010 Flames.

Look at their roster. You go down the list of their scoring leaders and you don't hit a 30 year old until #17 with Jay McClement who is just 30 this season.

Kessel 25
JVR 24
Raymond 27
Kadri 22
Lupul 29
Franson 26
Bozak 27
Phaneuf 28

etc, etc.....

Even their goalies are both 25.

That Flames team had an aging core, nothing real decent in the pipe line coming up and other than Dion, no elite talent in the 22-27 range.

There is definitely something wrong with this Leafs team, but it's not a similar situation to that Flames team IMO.

The comparison is more about the style of play at the start of both teams respective years. It was all smoke and mirrors for both teams. The leafs and Flames were both among the top teams in their conference. They both had ridiculous shooting % and got solid goaltending. Both teams fell back to earth Sutter panicked and ruined the Flames.

Another similarity is the fact the teams both finished 5th in their conference the year before but let go important forwards in the offseason in order to make a big splash in free agency. Sutter let Cammy and Bert go and brought in Bouw. Nonis got rid of Grabovski and MacArthur to bring in Clarkson.

I agree the Leafs are still young so they won't have the same problem the flames had which was refusing to rebuild. They could make the mistake of trading a young asset like Kadri to try and win now and fail In a similar fashion the flames did with Dion

[bubbsy]

coming out of last season, i think even the greatest of leaf haters (myself included) would agree this was a team on the rise, young core, which should only get better.

well they didn't. they had terrible stat lines that hinted at the fact that maybe they were fundamentally a poor team that out performed, and that pattern has continued again this year, though the poor odds that come with their play-style are coming back to bite them.

i think there's a severe leadership void there. phaneuf, kessel, jvr, lupul, franson, kadri, clarkson, bozak... i don't see any leadership guys throughout that entire lineup. then you have a tough coach in carlyle but he's losing the group and now the media (he's getting ripped pretty good out here).

nonis should shoulder a lot of the blame for this. he should be looked at squarely as the guy who took a team on the rise that burke created and breaking it. letting go grabovski/macurther, replacing them with clarkson (fail) and bolland (too injured to tell thus far) and not addressing a terrible defense and depth scoring has contributed to the weaker team.

Who the hell woulda imagined that this would be the year the raptors will make the playoffs but the leafs won't.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

The East is really bad. The Leafs are probably good enough to make the playoffs in that conference. Doubtful they make it past a team like Boston, Pittsburgh, or Detroit however.

As bad as the east seems, Detroit are far from a lock to even make the playoffs.

[Roof-Daddy]

Honestly, is anybody else as worried as I am that the main architect of this dismal Leafs team is now heading up our hockey ops department?

5 years building that abortion, some awful contracts (several that had to be out too) and they are struggling to be a perennial playoff team in the weak and pathetic eastern conference.

I sure hope he hires the right GM.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Honestly, is anybody else as worried as I am that the main architect of this dismal Leafs team is now heading up our hockey ops department?

5 years building that abortion, some awful contracts (several that had to be out too) and they are struggling to be a perennial playoff team in the weak and pathetic eastern conference.

I sure hope he hires the right GM.

To be fair, Burke didn't buyout a good player in Grabovski, nor did he sign Clarkson.

I think he brought in a dinosaur for a coach though who has killed the value of a lot of their players.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

To be fair, Burke didn't buyout a good player in Grabovski, nor did he sign Clarkson.

I think he brought in a dinosaur for a coach though who has killed the value of a lot of their players.

True, but he was responsible for Komisarek (bought out), Armstrong (bought out) and Liles, who was buried in the minors and pretty much a buy out candidate himself.

...plus the coach as you mentioned, and like I said, he built 90% of that team over a 5 year period and they still aren't very good.

Just scary to me. Hopefully I'm wrong, because he's done plenty of good things over his career too....

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

True, but he was responsible for Komisarek (bought out), Armstrong (bought out) and Liles, who was buried in the minors and pretty much a buy out candidate himself.



...plus the coach as you mentioned, and like I said, he built 90% of that team over a 5 year period and they still aren't very good.



Just scary to me. Hopefully I'm wrong, because he's done plenty of good things over his career too....

I'm holding out hope that he'll learn from mistakes he made in Toronto rather than repeat them... Toronto is essentially done rebuilding and they are a playoff bubble team... Probably will be for years. They have streaky scoring on the wings, slightly above average goaltending at times, risky defencemen, and poor depth/skill at center. Their core players are signed mostly long term.

I think Burke will want to sort out goaltending much faster than he did in Toronto. And I hope he focuses on building up the center ice position cause he struggled to do that in Toronto.

He wants the team to be bigger... So does every team in the NHL so it's hard to get those guys that are big, mean, and can score. He managed to get guys like that in lupul and JVR for Toronto at next to nothing so hopefully he can do that here.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

True, but he was responsible for Komisarek (bought out), Armstrong (bought out) and Liles, who was buried in the minors and pretty much a buy out candidate himself.

...plus the coach as you mentioned, and like I said, he built 90% of that team over a 5 year period and they still aren't very good.

Just scary to me. Hopefully I'm wrong, because he's done plenty of good things over his career too....

Beachemin for Lupul and Gardiner and a conditional 4th counterbalances a lot of smaller bad moves IMO. What a trade!

Similarly the Kaberle for Colborne (former 1st rounder), a 1st rounder and a conditional 2nd rounder was highway robbery.

Then there's Luke Schenn for JVR. Wowza.

IMO 3 trades in his time in TOR better than any trades we made under Feaster.

I'm much less scared this trade deadline. Both the Bouwmeester and Iginla trades were mildly disappointing to me last year. I want to have trades where it seems like we're ripping the other team off. Burke seems to get some big wins. Here's hoping he can manage one this year.

[Poe969]

Burke turned the leafs into a playoff team, they just fired him too soon. After firing him, they did some really dumb things and look at them now. IMO they weren't patient enough with Burke.

It's also a completely different situation as he's taking over a bottom 3 team. He knows he has to use the draft/prospects because we don't have much of value on our roster.

The only thing that scares me is patients. Both ours in Burke and his in the team but I think he's too smart to do something dumb

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Burke turned the leafs into a playoff team, they just fired him too soon. After firing him, they did some really dumb things and look at them now. IMO they weren't patient enough with Burke.

It's also a completely different situation as he's taking over a bottom 3 team. He knows he has to use the draft/prospects because we don't have much of value on our roster.

The only thing that scares me is patients. Both ours in Burke and his in the team but I think he's too smart to do something dumb

The Leafs were lucky to make the playoffs last year and there is/was nothing different between last year and this year to suggest it would be any better if he was still there. That's quite a leap imo

[SuperMatt18]

I think Nonis has made a lot of mistakes in the last 12 months.

The Clarkson contract was a mistake the second the ink dried on the contract.

Buying out the wrong player (Grabovski vs. Liles) was another mistake. Especially since Grabovski was their best center in terms of driving play and possession.

The Bernier trade was a good trade because it didn't cost the Leafs much in terms of assets, but it also didn't really fill a need.

And they didn't fill the one truly pressing need the team had which was on the backend. Does Burke go into this season with the exact same defense that was the weak spot on the team last year....doubtful.

[carom]

This quote sounds like it could have come from Brent Sutter:

“[The compete level is] nowhere near [last season’s],” Carlyle said after the morning skate. “We’ve been scratching our heads and trying to figure out why, and that’s one thing we’ve really tried to put at the forefront for the last three weeks to a month, that the compete level has to go to a level where we’re satisfied.

Also thought this was interesting:

It’s accumulated stress. Since Nov. 1, the Leafs are 12-16-5, with four wins in regulation. In the same span the Buffalo Sabres are 11-14-4, with four wins in regulation; Edmonton? 12-19-3, eight regulation wins. The Flames? 10-19-4, three regulation wins. The Panthers? 14-14-5, nine regulation wins. The Islanders? 14-17-4, nine regulation wins. That’s the Leafs versus the five worst teams in the league, over about 40% of a full season.

...

The only reason this thing hasn’t completely burned and exploded before sinking to the bottom of a very deep sea is that in the coin-flip land of the shootout and three-point games, they’ve scrapped out a few extra pennies. They grabbed a couple more Sunday night. They all count, as silly as that is.

http://ww2.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blo...on-the-numbers

[Erick Estrada]

I tend to think the Canucks are the Flames of 2010. Aging stars with nothing solid in the pipeline (up until the last draft anyway) with their window of winning a cup almost all but closed. Still good enough to contend for the playoffs and win more games than they lose but getting a little worse every year going forward as their best players age.

[Meers]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I tend to think the Canucks are the Flames of 2010. Aging stars with nothing solid in the pipeline (up until the last draft anyway) with their window of winning a cup almost all but closed. Still good enough to contend for the playoffs and win more games than they lose but getting a little worse every year going forward as their best players age.

I agree with you that the Canucks are on the downswing. But, I don't really think they are comparable to the 2010 Flames.

Vancouver hasn't been winning this season thanks to lucky bounces or unrealistic shooting percentages. They've got a good coach who's won a cup, they've got a fairly solid defence corps, a great PK and they did draft a couple of interesting prospects in 2013.

Yeah, their offence is currently anemic. But, that can be fixed with a buyout of David Booth in the offseason and picking up a UFA - along with Kassian continuing to develop.

So, I can't see them imploding the way the 2010 Flames did and then missing the playoffs for three years before deciding that a rebuild is needed. They're a pretty solid bet to place 6-8 in the West for a couple more years, and they might upset a team that looks past them in the first round.

But, I certainly can't see them surviving three playoffs series against the top Western Conference teams - so they're not a Cup contender.

Still, would you swap the Flames organization for the Canucks organization right now?

Pretty easy call if you like playoff hockey or hate being routinely shut out.

[djsFlames]

You knew the impending tailspin was going to see the light of day.

The Leafs were getting dominated in games, yet again and again were getting bailed out by the goaltending duo. It was a joke, really. You knew that just wasn't gonna hold up.

I think (like others) the Canucks are a better comparison. Right now the Canucks are around where the 07/08 - 08/09 Flames were. Another season or two and they'll be into the too old and slow territory. (can't wait!)

[Burke Salad]

I think the current Flames are more like the 2009/2010 Maple Leafs.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I tend to think the Canucks are the Flames of 2010. Aging stars with nothing solid in the pipeline (up until the last draft anyway) with their window of winning a cup almost all but closed. Still good enough to contend for the playoffs and win more games than they lose but getting a little worse every year going forward as their best players age.

Roster wise I totally agree the Canucks best players are 30 or over. I am thinking more like playing style. In 09/10 the flames were 24-12-5 and were playing high risk river hockey similar to the Leafs this year. Both teams fell off a cliff and the Flames ended up missing the playoffs. The Leafs are following a similar path.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Honestly, is anybody else as worried as I am that the main architect of this dismal Leafs team is now heading up our hockey ops department?

5 years building that abortion, some awful contracts (several that had to be out too) and they are struggling to be a perennial playoff team in the weak and pathetic eastern conference.

I sure hope he hires the right GM.

No because how the Leafs were built was different then how Vancouver was built which is different then how Anahaim was built.

What I do know is BB has made a lot of good trades, and is likely only GM for the trade deadline then we hire someone else in the summer. What I also know is Feaster was a bad GM, fumbled last years trade deadline and most of his trades in Calgary, and with Tampa. So taking into account those 2 things, I'd say overall we are in far better shape now with BB for now rather then Feaster and hope we hire a good GM in the summer.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The Leafs were lucky to make the playoffs last year and there is/was nothing different between last year and this year to suggest it would be any better if he was still there. That's quite a leap imo

They weren't "Lucky" to make the playoffs at all. They were the 5th seed. They didn't sneak in the last day of the season. they were easily one of the best 8 teams in the East.