Proposal to allow First Nations to create satellite reserves alarms municipalities

[Zarley]

I'm not a fan of any move that further enlarges and entrenches this broken reserve system.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Why is it ironic when the problem still exists and this girl is still in danger. The problem isn't solved by some good publicity. Maybe you should bone up on the facts if you want to discuss a story as in this case her father is actually encouraging her.

Her father didn't shoot her, did he? People who don't want their own slaves to get any ideas did.

And yes, that problem still exists. Much like the problem of the existence of the reserve system still exists. But the original point is valid: the most significant thing that holds people back are themselves. Change happens only when you fight for it.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Her father didn't shoot her, did he? People who don't want their own slaves to get any ideas did.

And yes, that problem still exists. Much like the problem of the existence of the reserve system still exists. But the original point is valid: the most significant thing that holds people back are themselves. Change happens only when you fight for it.

In a general view, I'd argue that circumstances are more important. If a person doesn't get the basics such as enough to eat or have the ability to go to school, they are very limited in their chances for upward mobility.

and why is it a given that the reserve system is the problem? As has been said many reserves are becoming successful and the native culture has always been a part of the co-operative life style.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

In a general view, I'd argue that circumstances are more important. If a person doesn't get the basics such as enough to eat or have the ability to go to school, they are very limited in their chances for upward mobility.

and why is it a given that the reserve system is the problem? As has been said many reserves are becoming successful and the native culture has always been a part of the co-operative life style.

I would argue that the problem is more along the lines of a native leadership problem then a federal government problem.

The money is there, its being put towards the natives in massive quantities. The problem is because its such a sensitive topic that because there is no oversight that a lot of the chiefs and tribal bands are keeping the money or worse, the government is trapped in the unenviable trap that if they come down hard or attempt to hammer out accountability that they are instantly infringing on the native right of self government at a band level.

The getting enough to eat and the water issue is in direct correlation to the remote locations of these bands. The educational failures are a problem directly linked not to money, but a lack of a plan where the government has to step in and enforce which leads to cries of residential school recreation. The lack of economic opportunity goes to both band leadership and lack of vision and inspiration and the remoteness of the tribe.

The government can't come down like the unholy hammer of Thor on frauds like Theresa Spence and other really bad leaders without raising the white man devil defense. They can't withhold the enormous funds that are going to these bands and being pissed away, they can't force these kids to go to school, or to leave the reserves to get better jobs.

I think the blame does have to shift to the reserve system, and a native mindset that should have really died 50 or 60 years ago.

You can't just basically say that its the governments fault or citizen's of Canada's fault anymore unless you solve the issue of government control and infringement without coming across as the evil white grandfather coming to eradicate their way of life.

While the reserve system will never ever go, or maybe not go until the last of the truly powerful band councils are swept away or removed from the cookie jar. I honestly think that its important to

1) Bring in home and individual land ownership
2) Incentive teachers and doctors to move to reservations (Maybe forgive a large part of their student loans in exchange for two years of service.
3) Force proper auditing and accounting procedures on the band councils
4) Find a way to improve facilities and housing through direct tax credits to native run companies that are willing to build them at cost
5) Reform the reserve election rules especially after that fraud election of Theresa Spense.


I don't know I'm just spit balling here

[Temporary_User]

Originally Posted by GGG

Saskatchewan has several urban reserves. They actually work quite well. The reserve negotiates a service agreement with the city and pays for things like water and sewage, policing, etc.

The the reserve is responsbile to mainting all of the roads, buildings and other things the city would normally be responsible for. In theory it should be a revenue neutral process. Really no different the Airdrie or any other suburb. So instead of this being a Reserve vs the white man debate it really should just be a parisite community debate.

The key to making it work is to make sure that they pay for the services they use. The Tsu Tina reserve after the ring road is built will very quickly adopt this type of structure.

What is stopping a reserve like the Tsu Tina from becoming a city just like Airdrie right now? Why would they need more land elsewhere to become so?
I'm not too familiar with the reservation system in Canada (I'm moreso with them in the States), but my understanding is if they wanted to build an attraction to get people to come they could.

Many CPers and Calgarians are familiar with the Seattle Premium Outlets north of Seattle. There is a fairly large outlet mall there as well as a casino and other shops (walmart, home depot, etc). This is all built on reserve land.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

What is stopping a reserve like the Tsu Tina from becoming a city just like Airdrie right now? Why would they need more land elsewhere to become so?
I'm not too familiar with the reservation system in Canada (I'm moreso with them in the States), but my understanding is if they wanted to build an attraction to get people to come they could.

Many CPers and Calgarians are familiar with the Seattle Premium Outlets north of Seattle. There is a fairly large outlet mall there as well as a casino and other shops (walmart, home depot, etc). This is all built on reserve land.

One thing preventing it right now is:

1) lack of road access to the reserve.

However, I'm thinking they could probably get a new road through their land with some nice exits funded by somebody else if they wanted. Which brings me to the other potential thing preventing it:

2) It's not what the leadership/people of the reserve want.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I would argue that the problem is more along the lines of a native leadership problem then a federal government problem.

The money is there, its being put towards the natives in massive quantities. The problem is because its such a sensitive topic that because there is no oversight that a lot of the chiefs and tribal bands are keeping the money or worse, the government is trapped in the unenviable trap that if they come down hard or attempt to hammer out accountability that they are instantly infringing on the native right of self government at a band level.

The getting enough to eat and the water issue is in direct correlation to the remote locations of these bands. The educational failures are a problem directly linked not to money, but a lack of a plan where the government has to step in and enforce which leads to cries of residential school recreation. The lack of economic opportunity goes to both band leadership and lack of vision and inspiration and the remoteness of the tribe.

The government can't come down like the unholy hammer of Thor on frauds like Theresa Spence and other really bad leaders without raising the white man devil defense. They can't withhold the enormous funds that are going to these bands and being pissed away, they can't force these kids to go to school, or to leave the reserves to get better jobs.

I think the blame does have to shift to the reserve system, and a native mindset that should have really died 50 or 60 years ago.

You can't just basically say that its the governments fault or citizen's of Canada's fault anymore unless you solve the issue of government control and infringement without coming across as the evil white grandfather coming to eradicate their way of life.

While the reserve system will never ever go, or maybe not go until the last of the truly powerful band councils are swept away or removed from the cookie jar. I honestly think that its important to

1) Bring in home and individual land ownership
2) Incentive teachers and doctors to move to reservations (Maybe forgive a large part of their student loans in exchange for two years of service.
3) Force proper auditing and accounting procedures on the band councils
4) Find a way to improve facilities and housing through direct tax credits to native run companies that are willing to build them at cost
5) Reform the reserve election rules especially after that fraud election of Theresa Spense.


I don't know I'm just spit balling here

Yeah sure there are problems on reserves with corrupt leaders, but this is changing as the people get better educated. As has been said there are reserves that are doing well and now some of these reserves are looking to expand their economies. If they follow the same guidelines as in Saskatchewan, what skin is it off your teeth.

I find it somewhat off putting that us white men want to decide what the natives should be doing to solve their so called problems. Such as yeah lets get rid of the reserves because they cause us problems (ring road) and think of the financial profits we can make with the reserve land.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Yeah sure there are problems on reserves with corrupt leaders, but this is changing as the people get better educated. As has been said there are reserves that are doing well and now some of these reserves are looking to expand their economies. If they follow the same guidelines as in Saskatchewan, what skin is it off your teeth.

Its no skin off of my teeth if the eventual goal is to reduce government dollars to the reserves because they become self sufficent. Right now that's not happening because we blindly give money with no expectation of improvement and no hard rules on how the money is handled. Its literally the worst investment out there, not because there's no chance of payback, but because there's no expectation of improvement.

Absolutely there are tribes that are surging and striving ahead, but others aren't and those tribes aren't being held to account by either the senior native leadership nor the feds.

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I find it somewhat off putting that us white men want to decide what the natives should be doing to solve their so called problems. Such as yeah lets get rid of the reserves because they cause us problems (ring road) and think of the financial profits we can make with the reserve land.

They are not so called problems and its not a whites only issue. Bottom line as taxpayers we should be demanding more accountability of our government, and more accountability about how the money is spent.

And your second point is ridiculous, I'm sorry but the reason to get rid of the reserve system is because its pretty much failing the natives especially the ones living in the ones run by corrupt scumbags who steal money from their own people, set up their relatives for life, and run roughshod over the citizens who don't ignore the problem and make trouble.

On top of that most of the land that some of these reserves are on are zero profit lands with no road and no infrastructure.

This isn't about race and it certainly isn't about evil white men trying to rape the poor natives. In the reserves that aren't working its as much about native on native raping, its about incompetence and its about allowing a system to stay in place that sets a second lower expectation standard or living.

The reserve system needs to be seriously reformed, and because its taxpayer money going into it hand and foot it needs to be seriously managed. Whether that's the federal government, whether that's the senior leadership in the native community is all up for debate.

Its great that some of these reserves are pulling themselves up and becoming profitable, that's the way it should be with the intent on removing taxpayer burden eventually as the reserves become self sufficient and self managing. But its not doing enough to pull them all out of the quagmire.

The systems failing, we're enabling bad behavior and we're lowering expectations. That to me points to the reserve system being out of date and long over due for a overhaul.

but don't simplify it to a its all about evil white people profiting and trying to exterminate them when its equally about evil native people doing worse.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its no skin off of my teeth if the eventual goal is to reduce government dollars to the reserves because they become self sufficent. Right now that's not happening because we blindly give money with no expectation of improvement and no hard rules on how the money is handled. Its literally the worst investment out there, not because there's no chance of payback, but because there's no expectation of improvement.

Absolutely there are tribes that are surging and striving ahead, but others aren't and those tribes aren't being held to account by either the senior native leadership nor the feds.





They are not so called problems and its not a whites only issue. Bottom line as taxpayers we should be demanding more accountability of our government, and more accountability about how the money is spent.

And your second point is ridiculous, I'm sorry but the reason to get rid of the reserve system is because its pretty much failing the natives especially the ones living in the ones run by corrupt scumbags who steal money from their own people, set up their relatives for life, and run roughshod over the citizens who don't ignore the problem and make trouble.

On top of that most of the land that some of these reserves are on are zero profit lands with no road and no infrastructure.

This isn't about race and it certainly isn't about evil white men trying to rape the poor natives. In the reserves that aren't working its as much about native on native raping, its about incompetence and its about allowing a system to stay in place that sets a second lower expectation standard or living.

The reserve system needs to be seriously reformed, and because its taxpayer money going into it hand and foot it needs to be seriously managed. Whether that's the federal government, whether that's the senior leadership in the native community is all up for debate.

Its great that some of these reserves are pulling themselves up and becoming profitable, that's the way it should be with the intent on removing taxpayer burden eventually as the reserves become self sufficient and self managing. But its not doing enough to pull them all out of the quagmire.

The systems failing, we're enabling bad behavior and we're lowering expectations. That to me points to the reserve system being out of date and long over due for a overhaul.

but don't simplify it to a its all about evil white people profiting and trying to exterminate them when its equally about evil native people doing worse.

There is something you forget, Canada and the natives came to agreements to cede their land to Canada and Canada has certain obligations to keep for this deal. It isn't handouts, it's payment for property received. When you buy say a car, does the seller get to determine how you'll use that car? This is what's happened in Canada with our natives as the government took away their rights, they became "wards of Canada" and it will take a while for the natives to regain their responsibilities.

Maybe try and find some sources for your generalizations but meanwhile read this and understand some of the problems native reserves are facing in order to improve themselves.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/how-do...work-1.1301120

There are a lot of complicated situations that the reserves face as they attempt to enter into financial deals but one native agrees with you on one point.

For Calla, it all adds up to the need for a new fiscal financing relationship, in which First Nations are viewed as "governments, not recipients."

So at some point I can see reserves treated more like municipalities with some special rights.

Do First Nations have external auditors?

Yes. It's a requirement of the funding agreements First Nations have with the federal government. AANDC makes them available on their website.
Nevertheless, the Ipsos-Reid polling firm asked Canadians in January whether additional taxpayer money should be withheld from a reserve "until external auditors can be put in place to ensure financial accountability." And 81 per cent of those asked said yes.
Since there are external audits already, the poll angered Wilson. "Neither the pollster or 81 per cent of Canadians understand fundamental facts, and why is that, it's because the government and their friends are pushing the notion."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/7-ques...lity-1.1331320

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Yeah sure there are problems on reserves with corrupt leaders, but this is changing as the people get better educated. As has been said there are reserves that are doing well and now some of these reserves are looking to expand their economies. If they follow the same guidelines as in Saskatchewan, what skin is it off your teeth.

I find it somewhat off putting that us white men want to decide what the natives should be doing to solve their so called problems. Such as yeah lets get rid of the reserves because they cause us problems (ring road) and think of the financial profits we can make with the reserve land.

It drives me crazy when someone comes along and paraphrases a thread with a bunch of garbage that nobody said.

Pretty sure the posts in this thread (that were on topic) were geared toward reducing the obvious segregation of the natives, and addressing the obvious corruption in their leadership. Clearly you're for letting them solve their own problems, which is fine. I don't understand why you're twisting the other side of the argument into "white men wanting to get a ring road and profit financially".

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by 4X4

It drives me crazy when someone comes along and paraphrases a thread with a bunch of garbage that nobody said.

Pretty sure the posts in this thread (that were on topic) were geared toward reducing the obvious segregation of the natives, and addressing the obvious corruption in their leadership. Clearly you're for letting them solve their own problems, which is fine. I don't understand why you're twisting the other side of the argument into "white men wanting to get a ring road and profit financially".

I mentioned the ring road because people here are familiar with it and it would be convenient for the city if the reserve didn't exist. Yeah probably some are just repeating, lets get rid of reserves because they haven't thought through the situation but who are the people putting this idea out there.

If you remember the first few posts were, the natives can't do this, they're just another variation of the Freemen trying to leech off taxpayers and this was the gist of the newspaper article as well.

You don't see the people here trying to solve the so called native issue. Look up the white man's burden or better here's the modern meaning.

white man's burdenn. The supposed or presumed responsibility of white people to govern and impart their culture to nonwhite people, often advanced as a justification for European colonialism.

or

White man's burdenn (Social Science / Anthropology & Ethnology) the supposed duty of the White race to bring education and Western culture to the non-White inhabitants of their colonies

Some peoples aren't that interested in emulating our culture despite what Hollywood and American propaganda says.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Some peoples aren't that interested in emulating our culture despite what Hollywood and American propaganda says.

Which is cool, but what do you propose be done, then? They've sold their land (whether they 'understood' that or not), it's gone, and that's that...if they want to turn back to nomadic wanderers who end up freezing in their tipi's, should that be allowed?

They may not be interested in Canadian, European or 'white man' cultures and that's ok...but they need to start getting with modern civilization. Regardless of culture, most folks have to deal with modernization and change.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

Which is cool, but what do you propose be done, then? They've sold their land (whether they 'understood' that or not), it's gone, and that's that...if they want to turn back to nomadic wanderers who end up freezing in their tipi's, should that be allowed?

They may not be interested in Canadian, European or 'white man' cultures and that's ok...but they need to start getting with modern civilization. Regardless of culture, most folks have to deal with modernization and change.

I propose they work things out for themselves unless things go way sideways.

[GreenLantern]

If we are referring to these urban Saskatchewan reserves like Fire Creek, which I think we are, then it solves nothing, just centralizes the problem. I have a few cop buddies, few fire fighter buddies, they say that nothing has changed in this area it just centralized all the calls. So instead of being scattered up and down 20th street they go to the same block to pick up needles, break up fights, pick up stab victims. You aren't solving the problem.

We need to be moving away from the reserve system, it is broken and obviously leaving them to solve their own problems has not worked and will not work in the future.

If you go to the fire and get burned 9 times do you really think the 10th time will be different?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

What is stopping a reserve like the Tsu Tina from becoming a city just like Airdrie right now? Why would they need more land elsewhere to become so?
I'm not too familiar with the reservation system in Canada (I'm moreso with them in the States), but my understanding is if they wanted to build an attraction to get people to come they could.

Many CPers and Calgarians are familiar with the Seattle Premium Outlets north of Seattle. There is a fairly large outlet mall there as well as a casino and other shops (walmart, home depot, etc). This is all built on reserve land.

The biggest issue is the lack of property rights and autonomy over land use. Any leasing deal needs to be approved by the feds so it takes years to get done.

[Joborule]

It's probably obvious how the majority of Canadians feels about the reserve system and wish to see it abolished while still maintaining benefits for first nations status, but I wonder if majority of first nations feel the same? If so, then it shouldn't be that great of a political issue to get it done would it? It'll be controversial for a bit, but it should pass over quickly since the idea is to improve the situation for all parties.

[GGG]

My understanding is there are two main groups within the reserve system. One is progressive and wants to integrate while maintaining governance. The other group believes they have a spiritual connection to the land so subdivision is offensive at a almost religious level. (This is a gross over simplification).

There are also groups that want to maintain federal oversight to prevent corrupt chiefs from squandering the reserve land. So from the outside it seems simple but really is much more complicated.