Ongoing Sea King Replacement Debacle Thread

[Zulu29]

Why is Sikorsky having such a hard time living up to this order? From what I've read they owe around 90 million in fines to the government because of missing benchmarks. Seems to me that they are the ones in breach of contract and the government should be able to walk away.

[Plett25]

I don't think the problem with the Cyclone is the airframe, isn't the problem the weapons system integration?

The Aussies walked away from a bunch of upgraded/modernized Seasprites (and hundreds of millions of $$$) for pretty much the same reason. And the Brits abandoned the Nimrod upgrade (after spending hundreds of millions) for the same reason.

The EH-101 probably would have had the same cost over-runs and program delays. I can't imagine we were going to use off the shelf UK weapons systems in the EH-101. So we would have been trying to come up with a unique to Canada system... just like the Cyclone.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally Posted by Plett25

I don't think the problem with the Cyclone is the airframe, isn't the problem the weapons system integration?

I believe that's a large part of what's "not complete" although there seems to be a lot of chatter about non compliance with air worthiness directives issued too. I believe it lacks safety certification right now.

The first fully equipped helicopter was supposed to be delivered in November 2008, with delivery of all 28 helicopters by early 2011. But Sikorsky has yet to deliver a fully compliant helicopter.
The company has instead offered Canada what it calls “interim” helicopters — aircraft that are not fully outfitted with their mission systems. Improvements would be added to the helicopters over time. That offer, however, has been rejected.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...Sikorsky-Helos


The electronics suite could cost billion to develop so the government is right to refuse acceptance. It ain't finished - pure and simple.



This is a good, but slightly out of date report from the Auditor General that has the full gory details of this train wreck.


http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/en...6_e_34289.html

[Northendzone]

i wonder how much these breakup fees add to the manufacturers bottom line.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i wonder how much these breakup fees add to the manufacturers bottom line.

One of the reasons Sikorsky is not falling all over themselves to deliver is that it greatly improved their bottom line for the year.

[Zulu29]

Read an article where it said the government may end up choosing the Merlin Mk2 (EH-101) now.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Slava

The CPC has been in power for nearly a decade...surely something could've been done over that time?

Originally Posted by Slava

So the CPC has been in power for basically a decade

Originally Posted by Slava

but the old line of "its the other guys fault" is pretty ridiculous after you've been in power for seven years going on eight.

Originally Posted by Slava

I just don't like the idea that the CPC has done nothing to fix what they've complained about for nearly 10 years now.

How long again, Slava?

[Daradon]

The Liberals really did start the ball rolling on this clusterfudge, and in this particular instance I have a hard time blaming the CPC.

However their record isn't great either. The fighters are still all messed up and aren't we beginning to hear problems about those naval yard contracts they celebrated so much a few years back?

[Swarez]

Originally Posted by Daradon

The Liberals really did start the ball rolling on this clusterfudge, and in this particular instance I have a hard time blaming the CPC.

However their record isn't great either. The fighters are still all messed up and aren't we beginning to hear problems about those naval yard contracts they celebrated so much a few years back?

I think no matter who is in charge, there will always be a mess with military spending. No government knows what things really cost, manufactures never come out with products that work day 1, than costs go up. Governments don't really care, companies get paid more, we get screwed, no matter who's in charge.

[jofillips]

this is what the government gets for not replacing an aged fleet 20 years ago, costs go up when decisions aren't made and stuck to....

[Northendzone]

^ meh, it was just a half billion of tax revenue - there is more of that "low hanging fruit" around......

[worth]

Canadian air force engineers and flight-certification officials are grappling with serious concerns related to the electronics aboard the CH-148 Cyclone helicopters that are supposed to replace the geriatric Sea Kings.

But the sources say there's concern that delicate flight systems, including a computer that runs the engines, are not sufficiently shielded against powerful electromagnetic waves, such as those produced by military-grade radar on frigates.

The interference has the potential of blanking out the digital instruments and possibly shutting down the engines.

The directorate of air worthiness at National Defence issued a restricted flight certificate in July and imposed restrictions on the helicopter's operations specifically because of so-called E-3 concerns — electromagnetic compatibility, electromagnetic vulnerability and electromagnetic interference.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stor...e-chopper.html

[CaptainCrunch]

[SebC]

Ouch. If radar can knock out the systems, what does an EMP or a signal jammer do?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by SebC

Ouch. If radar can knock out the systems, what does an EMP or a signal jammer do?

It doesn't matter your basically not going to get it off of the deck of a Frigate.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Swarez

I think no matter who is in charge, there will always be a mess with military spending. No government knows what things really cost, manufactures never come out with products that work day 1, than costs go up. Governments don't really care, companies get paid more, we get screwed, no matter who's in charge.

You are right, it does seem to be something governments have a hard time with.

Unless you're a dictator who's getting offered arms to stay in charge, or a rebel faction getting arms to overthrow said dictator, procurement charges do seem to balloon.

Not sure if governments don't care exactly, as you said, but the rest does make sense.

[worth]

I suppose this could go in the F-35 thread as well:

CBC News has learned the Conservative government intends to reform Canada's troubled system of military procurement and could announce its plans as early as next month's speech from the throne.

Those plans could see the formation of a new agency under a single minister to manage all military procurement, or a secretariat of bureaucrats from each of the departments currently involved in sourcing Canada's military equipment.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mili...nges-1.1871009

[photon]

Pretty clever, form a new agency then shrug when they decide to buy the same choppers they decided not to buy.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by photon

Pretty clever, form a new agency then shrug when they decide to buy the same choppers they decided not to buy.

You mean buy the Choppers that were bought in the first place.

[photon]

Yeah the ones we bought then got out of. I still think if they go back and re-order them they should be able to get part of the cancellation fee back, since they're uncancelling!

I don't know if that's why they're making this agency, but it does feel like doubling down. It's probably only because I just watched like 4 episodes of House of Cards.

EDIT: I really don't care either, I just want to see cool helicopters and jets dammit!