Summer Prospect Ranking Poll Round 19

[jaymac106]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

21.37% for each of Bouma/Breen/Berra

I wonder if a seperate poll should be done that only has these 3 guys, and it would be for spots 19, 20, and 21?

Might as well keep Kanzig in the mix as well as he is not too far behind.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by _Q_

People picking Kanzig over Breen are, in my opinion, doing so only because he's the shiny new toy. Kanzig projects to be what Breen is right now (large, stay at home defenceman playing in the AHL who might be a decent injury call up). Sure Kanzig's huge, but Breen is bigger.

I'm willing to bet that if the Flames were hoping Kanzig would develope to be just like a 24 year old undrafted defenseman that hasn't had a sniff of the NHL as of yet that they certainly wouldn't have used a 3rd round pick on him.

I know some of you like Chris Breen but we are talking about a guy that is big but a below average skater and no offensive game. By all reports his skating still isn't there yet and it may never be. He may get some games in but because of his size but I don't think the Flames are looking at him as a cornerstone player.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I'm willing to bet that if the Flames were hoping Kanzig would develope to be just like a 24 year old undrafted defenseman that hasn't had a sniff of the NHL as of yet that they certainly wouldn't have used a 3rd round pick on him.

I know some of you like Chris Breen but we are talking about a guy that is big but a below average skater and no offensive game. By all reports his skating still isn't there yet and it may never be. He may get some games in but because of his size but I don't think the Flames are looking at him as a cornerstone player.

Not to mention that he was reported to shy away from using his size to his advantage. Not a particularly hard nosed defender. Not sure if PMM would say that he has developed that part of his game or not, but he sure doesn't look as mean or tough as Kanzig.

[ricardodw]

Breen is older than Bouma...

There are late developers (Glencross) that can make it to the NHL at his age but they are far and few between.


Bouma has NHL skating ability and even with a 5-10% improvement on his 27 NHL games in 2011-12 he will be a 82 game starter for the Flames.

He was definitely going to be in the Flames line-up if last season started in October.


Does anyone see the 24 -year old Breen playing more NHL games than 23-year old Bouma this year?

What is the time frame for Breen's potential to come to fruition?

I hope that Kanzig and Breen actually turn out well but it is inconceivable that anyone would consider them as better prospects than Bouma at this point in time.

Bouma played 21 games just over 10 minutes /game in 2011-12 on a team that should have been in the playoffs but finished 5 pts back of the SC winners.

Baertschi only got in 20 games at 13 minutes/game on the worst team in Flames history.


There was some push back that Bouma already graduated and has 43 NHL games BUT he is 23 years old and is on the list.

Not only is he a far better prospect than Breen and Kanzig he will likely have a longer NHL career and make more money than most of the guys that this poll has ranked #6 - 18.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Voted Kulak (though I feel Culkin is a tie with him).

Top 4 upside is more valuable in my eyes than anything left really.

[TurnedTheCorner]

Hanowski

[TurnedTheCorner]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Kanzig. If the guy can develop into a Zdeno Chara type player, I think every one of us will be kicking ourselves for letting him fall to round 19 of this poll.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Bouma played 21 games just over 10 minutes /game in 2011-12 on a team that should have been in the playoffs but finished 5 pts back of the SC winners.

If there's a more ridiculous way of saying "a team that wasn't very close to making the playoffs", I can't think of one right now.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Not to mention that he was reported to shy away from using his size to his advantage. Not a particularly hard nosed defender. Not sure if PMM would say that he has developed that part of his game or not, but he sure doesn't look as mean or tough as Kanzig.

I am pretty sure PMM has already said a number of times that he thinks highly of Breen and that the reason Breen isn't abusing people with his size is because he has taken on an increased role on the Heat where he is being relied upon for bigger minutes. Breen's reaction to this role change was to play a more repsonsible game where he doesn't end up sitting in the penalty box.

Being "mean or tough" is great and all but being "mean, tough and smart" is better.

[TheGrimm]

I voted Ferland, if he can get it together I still think he's got NHL upside.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Wolven

I am pretty sure PMM has already said a number of times that he thinks highly of Breen and that the reason Breen isn't abusing people with his size is because he has taken on an increased role on the Heat where he is being relied upon for bigger minutes. Breen's reaction to this role change was to play a more repsonsible game where he doesn't end up sitting in the penalty box.

Being "mean or tough" is great and all but being "mean, tough and smart" is better.

Calling Shenanigans on that.

where does "Being big and easy going" fit into cliché hierarchy?

It sounds like Breen has matured and toned down the over the top rough stuff. In 9 years of hockey (Junior and AHL ) in only 1 year did he have More PIM than games played. 67 PIM in 55 games the first year he could have been drafted.

He has never taken penalties.... He does not abuse people with his size and never has.

I was pleased to see that last year Breen had 7 fighting majors after 2 years of 3 and 3. I would guess that someone advised him that if he wasn't going to drop the gloves every 10th game he did not have the skills to play in the NHL.

He still only had 55 PIM .... taking 35 off for fighting and that leaves 20 PIM


For someone who is going to clear the crease and do some heavy hitting 20 minutes sounds like avoiding conflict.... Yes I know it is not good to take stupid penalties but if you are playing the type of game that Breen has to play to get to the NHL he has to be more involved than 10 minor penalties in 60 games.

I hope that no one is suggesting he is Jay Bouwmeester V2.0 and just relies on reach, positioning and skating.

People are gushing about Kanzig's hockey IQ (and that he can skate backwards) but at age 18 he has figured out if he wants to play in the NHL he has to use the fact that he is able to crush guys and does it on a regular basis he will be making a Million bucks a year rather than 60K playing in the AHL. Kanzig in 2 years of juniors is getting close to Breen's 9 year total.

In 2008-09 when Regehr was the best D-man on the Flames he took 73 PIM. taking away 15 for 3 fighting majors... 58 PIM 29 minors in 75 games for being physically involved. Not a lot of stupid penalties and created a lot of room for himself, Kipper and the rest of the team.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Kanzig. If the guy can develop into a Zdeno Chara type player, I think every one of us will be kicking ourselves for letting him fall to round 19 of this poll.

Just stop posting

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

In 2008-09 when Regehr was the best D-man on the Flames he took 73 PIM. taking away 15 for 3 fighting majors... 58 PIM 29 minors in 75 games for being physically involved. Not a lot of stupid penalties and created a lot of room for himself, Kipper and the rest of the team.

I'm not sure there's a strong correlation between PIMs and playing physical. Most minors aren't handed out for being physical, they're handed out for stick infractions (high sticking, tripping, and hooking), with holding being a close second.

Find me the guy who leads the league in roughing and boarding penalties, not the guy who leads the league in PIMs. "Physical play" does not cause PIMs very often in my experience.

Edit: outside of fighting majors, obviously.

[kehatch]

I am surprised Culkin isn't getting more lovin. He had a really good season and has the right type of skill set to be a good NHL player.

Breen and Bouma are both pretty close to NHL ready but I think both likely cap out as low line players. Berra I get (though he doesn't meet my age cutoff for prospects). Kanzig I don't get at all but to each his own.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Calling Shenanigans on that.

where does "Being big and easy going" fit into cliché hierarchy?

It sounds like Breen has matured and toned down the over the top rough stuff. In 9 years of hockey (Junior and AHL ) in only 1 year did he have More PIM than games played. 67 PIM in 55 games the first year he could have been drafted.

He has never taken penalties.... He does not abuse people with his size and never has.

Other than his first half season Shea Weber has never had more PIM than games played and actually had a season where he had half as many PIM's as games played. I guess he is a soft player that doesn't abuse people with his size or do a good job of clearing the net and heavy hitting.

Your obssession with PIM's is confusing as it tells you very little about how physical a guy is or isn't.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by moon

Other than his first half season Shea Weber has never had more PIM than games played and actually had a season where he had half as many PIM's as games played. I guess he is a soft player that doesn't abuse people with his size or do a good job of clearing the net and heavy hitting.

Your obssession with PIM's is confusing as it tells you very little about how physical a guy is or isn't.

Shea Weber??? Are you trying to help my statement or argue against it?? Hard to tell.



yep Shea Weber had 48 PIM in 48 games. 10 Minutes for 2 5-minute fighting majors and that leaves 19 minor penalties in 48 games. Basically a minor penalty every second game or so.... Stupid Penalties? or just things that happen when you play hard like Weber.

That is someone who is the head and shoulders MVP on his team and and has skills and shooting ability in the top 2% of the the players in the league.

I don't want somebody to be taking a bunch of penalties ..... but somebody that is taking 10 minor penalties is more likely avoiding breaking the eggs in in his pockets than playing hard hockey.

If Breen wants to have more than 10 career games in the NHL he will have to be far more involved physically then a minor penalty every 6 games. He won't make it to the NHL as a Lady Byng candidate.

Where I got my rep for PIM is wondering how someone playing hard against men take 1 minor penalty the whole season. When Lindholm comes over and plays in the NHL I won't be shocked that he is a fringe player.

Comparing him to minor penalty generator Forsberg is just so ridiculous. If you play as hard as Forsberg you are going take some penalties.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Shea Weber??? Are you trying to help my statement or argue against it?? Hard to tell.

yep Shea Weber had 48 PIM in 48 games. 10 Minutes for 2 5-minute fighting majors and that leaves 19 minor penalties in 48 games. Basically a minor penalty every second game or so.... Stupid Penalties? or just things that happen when you play hard like Weber.

That is someone who is the head and shoulders MVP on his team and and has skills and shooting ability in the top 2% of the the players in the league

Nice of you to ignore the previous two years when he was first team All-Star he had 46 in 78 games and 56 in 82. When he went up to 46 in 48 games his play wasn't close to as good as the previous two years with much lower PIM/game totals.

Seems Weber is able to play at an All-Star level without things "just happening" and when his penalties increase his effectiveness goes down.

[Bezer]

SURVEY SAYS... Bouma!

[kyuss275]

I've been picking Culkin for a while and it just seems like throwing away a vote. I have now changed to Bouma just so it might count.

How in the hell is Hanowski getting more votes than Culkin and Kulak?

Also while i like the size of Kanzig, i see no reason for him to be that far ahead in voting over Culkin and Kulak. Really seems like voters are picking whatever is shiny and new.

[cral12]

Kulak, take 4.