Canada vs. The World (All Time Teams)

[doctajones428]

Originally Posted by New Era

No. You are aware hockey existed prior to 1980 and many of the iron curtain countries never had their best players appear in the NHL? Even the Scandinavian countries had some of their greats not play in North America. There are a ton of legendary players that would make these teams at the expense of many of the names tossed around.

Czechoslovakia had players like Ivan Hlinka, Jiri Novak, Milan Novy, Frantisak Pospisil, Jiri Bubla and Vladimir Dzurilla. The Finns had Matti Hagman. The Swedes had Inge Hammarstrom, Andres Hedberg, Willy Lidstrom and Hardy Astrom. I've already mentioned the Russians, who were the scariest of the bunch. Canada would be ridiculously deep just by going through the greats who played for the Canadiens, let alone the other teams. The all-time teams should include players from every era, not just the past two decades.

I'm only 24. My knowledge on older, non-NHL Euro's is pretty thin.

At least I included Tretiak.

You sound very knowledgeable about these guys, what would your All World team look like?

[moon]

Originally Posted by New Era

I believe a Russian team comprised of all their greats would be almost unstoppable. Khalamov, Mikhailov, Yakushev, Maltsov, Krutov, Larianov, Markarov, Lebdev, Vasilev, Gusev, Fetisov, Kasatonov, Bilyaletdinov and Tretiak as the foundation would be insane. Imagine seeing players like Bure, Malkin and Datsyuk playing on the third line. Crazy team that could beat you at both ends of the ice.

Canada's all-time team should be able to stop them pretty easily since they would be much better.

[Kaine]

Originally Posted by moon

Canada's all-time team should be able to stop them pretty easily since they would be much better.

Not to take anything away since Russia would have a great team, but Canada's would be better. Doesn't happen often but I agree with moon

[vilzeh]

Nothing beats the line of:

Kasataonov - Fetisov - Makarov
Larionov - Krutov

The chemistry & skill, no one beats it. NO ONE.

[moon]

Originally Posted by vilzeh

Nothing beats the line of:

Kasataonov - Fetisov - Makarov
Larionov - Krutov

The chemistry & skill, no one beats it. NO ONE.

Didn't Canada beat it in 1987?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by vilzeh

Nothing beats the line of:

Kasataonov - Fetisov - Makarov
Larionov - Krutov

The chemistry & skill, no one beats it. NO ONE.

They played together as a 5-man unit for well over a decade.

Take Canada's top 5 (which at that time would have included Gretzky and Lemieux) and play them as a unit for most of their careers, and I think they would be prey good too.

Those guys were great players, but IMO, Kasatonov and Krutov were very fortunate to be playing on that unit and would not be in any discussions I would have about all-time greats.

Fetisov is the only Russian defenseman that I think is in the discussion with the 8 or 10 Canadian defensemen discussed above

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by vilzeh

Nothing beats the line of:

Kasataonov - Fetisov - Makarov
Larionov - Krutov

The chemistry & skill, no one beats it. NO ONE.

It is a travesty that Makarov isn't in the HHOF.

[vilzeh]

Originally Posted by moon

Didn't Canada beat it in 1987?

Line

That's the best line hockey has ever seen.

I don't care if they played together for a decade every day of every year, the fact is just that they were the best.

Sure, I have no doubt Gretzky - Lemieux etc would be the best ever line up there if they'd had played together for a decade, they didn't.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by vilzeh

Line

That's the best line hockey has ever seen.

I don't care if they played together for a decade every day of every year, the fact is just that they were the best.

Sure, I have no doubt Gretzky - Lemieux etc would be the best ever line up there if they'd had played together for a decade, they didn't.

But Gretzky, Lemieux and <insert one of several wingers here> DID play together in 87 and were better.

Do they have to play together for a decade to prove that?

I think it's wrong to base a view of who is best based on a country's structure. They played together because of the political regime. That doesn't make them the best, it makes them the product of their environment.

G and L in 87 showed they were better.

[vilzeh]

No, they '87 they showed that team Canada is better.

or "better." They played in a small-rink and it ended 2-1 in games, 6-5 in every game.

[Enoch Root]

my Russian forwards...

Kharlamov Mikhailov Petrov (70s line)
Ovechkin Larionov Makarov (80s line improved)
Bure Federov Mogilny (90s line)
Datsyuk Malkin Kovalchuk (00s line)

[moon]

Originally Posted by vilzeh

No, they '87 they showed that team Canada is better.

or "better." They played in a small-rink and it ended 2-1 in games, 6-5 in every game.

Lemieux and Gretzky badly outscored them and Gretzky was the MVP of the tournament. So the line did outplay the Russians. They were also dominant in the 3 game finale against the Russians.

I guess maybe they aren't as "great" because they didn't have a regular winger with them but Lemiux-Gretzky-X with whatever defensive pairing was better than anything the Russians had in 1987.

[NBC]

At one point during the final of the '87 Canada Cup, Team Canada had a line consisting of:

Lemieux - Gretzky - Messier

Bourque - Coffey

I think I'd take that over any line the Soviets could muster.

[vilzeh]

Still not my point, but carry on.

[BlackWallStreet]

Originally Posted by NBC

At one point during the final of the '87 Canada Cup, Team Canada had a line consisting of:

Lemieux - Gretzky - Messier

Bourque - Coffey

I think I'd take that over any line the Soviets could muster.

That line is deadly!!

O_O

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by moon

Lemieux and Gretzky badly outscored them and Gretzky was the MVP of the tournament. So the line did outplay the Russians. They were also dominant in the 3 game finale against the Russians.

I guess maybe they aren't as "great" because they didn't have a regular winger with them but Lemiux-Gretzky-X with whatever defensive pairing was better than anything the Russians had in 1987.

Yeah, not so much. The Soviets were extremely consistent and machine like. That's why of the top 10 scorers 7 were Soviets. And really, the 2nd game of the finals was really the difference in scoring totals. Gretzky had a 5 point game and Lemieux had the natural hat trick. Outside of that the lines were pretty square.

In fact, outside of "the goal" the Gretzky-Lemieux tandem was pretty quiet, outside of the power play, in the final game. The Soviets jumped on the Canadians and looked like they were going to run the host team out of their own barn. It was the grinders that got the Canadians back in the game, lead by Tocchet, Sutter and Hawerchuk. People don't appreciate the little things the grinders did that game, allowing the big names to earn the glory. If it were not for Hawerchuk dragging down Bykov, in an obvious uncalled interference penalty, the Canadians wouldn't have had the odd man rush that led to the Lemieux goal. What really hurt the Soviets was Larianov's injury and his inability to center the top line. I still remember that series like it was yesterday. Man I wish they would bring the Canada Cup back!

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by New Era

Yeah, not so much. The Soviets were extremely consistent and machine like. That's why of the top 10 scorers 7 were Soviets. And really, the 2nd game of the finals was really the difference in scoring totals. Gretzky had a 5 point game and Lemieux had the natural hat trick. Outside of that the lines were pretty square.

In fact, outside of "the goal" the Gretzky-Lemieux tandem was pretty quiet, outside of the power play, in the final game. The Soviets jumped on the Canadians and looked like they were going to run the host team out of their own barn. It was the grinders that got the Canadians back in the game, lead by Tocchet, Sutter and Hawerchuk. People don't appreciate the little things the grinders did that game, allowing the big names to earn the glory. If it were not for Hawerchuk dragging down Bykov, in an obvious uncalled interference penalty, the Canadians wouldn't have had the odd man rush that led to the Lemieux goal. What really hurt the Soviets was Larianov's injury and his inability to center the top line. I still remember that series like it was yesterday. Man I wish they would bring the Canada Cup back!

So just leave out game two? And don't include the power play in game 3?

So leave out 33% of the playing time that doesn't help your side of the discussion.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

So just leave out game two? And don't include the power play in game 3?

So leave out 33% of the playing time that doesn't help your side of the discussion.

Not saying to discount those games. Just pointing out this is where the statistical difference comes in. It's kind of like evaluating Sam Gagner and thinking he had a great year points wise until you see he had 8 points in one game. You don't take that game away from him but you also consider it when you evaluate his performance. Gretzky and Lemieux were all world that tournament and deserve all the accolades they got. I just think the depiction of them being heads and tails over the Soviets because of the number of points they scored to be a weak argument. The Soviets played a different style of game and relied on the whole team more so than Canada did. That was reflected in the stats. It is funny, but people seem to forget how close this series was and that it was not the runaway suggested.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by New Era

Not saying to discount those games. Just pointing out this is where the statistical difference comes in. It's kind of like evaluating Sam Gagner and thinking he had a great year points wise until you see he had 8 points in one game. You don't take that game away from him but you also consider it when you evaluate his performance. Gretzky and Lemieux were all world that tournament and deserve all the accolades they got. I just think the depiction of them being heads and tails over the Soviets because of the number of points they scored to be a weak argument. The Soviets played a different style of game and relied on the whole team more so than Canada did. That was reflected in the stats. It is funny, but people seem to forget how close this series was and that it was not the runaway suggested.

Ummm no. Gretzky and Lemieux came up big when it counted. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you

[Dion]

Originally Posted by vilzeh

Nothing beats the line of:

Kasataonov - Fetisov - Makarov
Larionov - Krutov

The chemistry & skill, no one beats it. NO ONE.

My all Russian team....

Yakushev - Firsov - Kharlamov

Vasiliev - Fetisov

Tretiak