It's a spiral. The main idea though is "they will like what we produce and we will make adjustments after we hear feedback", not "we will produce what they like".
Only about the Cera, Bateman, Rudd bit I think. I do think that Hollywood, while certainly taking creative liberties, does try to mirror enough of our current culture to still be marketable.
Only about the Cera, Bateman, Rudd bit I think. I do think that Hollywood, while certainly taking creative liberties, does try to mirror enough of our current culture to still be marketable.
Just think of Seth Rogen and Jonah Hill. Do you seriously think these characters would have had any chance of being mass-liked even 20 years ago? Judd Apatow is enjoying an icon-like status in Hollywood these days, so anything and anyone he wants to put in a movie is practically a guaranteed star. Here you go: these are The Men of today.
Just think of Seth Rogen and Jonah Hill. Do you seriously think these characters would have had any chance of being mass-liked even 20 years ago? Judd Apatow is enjoying an icon-like status in Hollywood these days, so anything and anyone he wants to put in a movie is practically a guaranteed star. Here you go: these are The Men of today.
Right, but they're still presented as losers. When Seth Rogen bangs Katherine Heigl, it's not because he's super awesome and attractive, it's because she's drunk. I don't think I can name a single woman who's gotten turned on by watching a Michael Cera movie. It's escapism for the common man-child, which is why it's so popular. There are large sub-section of men who don't really want to participate but still want to be with good-looking women, and these are the movies who are geared towards.
You might have a point with someone like Ryan Gosling, but then it's more the overt romanticism associated with him.
Exactly! How many modern commercials (except Viagra ads) can you recall right away with men being presented NOT as losers? Not whining sick, not stupidly staring at a bank teller, not following behind an athletic girl to talk to a car salesman, not asking an idiotic question about some simple home repair problem? I see this whole new thing about pushing the man-loser image not only as acceptable and charming but also as the norm that Holywood is adopting.
Just think of Seth Rogen and Jonah Hill. Do you seriously think these characters would have had any chance of being mass-liked even 20 years ago? Judd Apatow is enjoying an icon-like status in Hollywood these days, so anything and anyone he wants to put in a movie is practically a guaranteed star. Here you go: these are The Men of today.
John Candy, John Belushi, etc. Not that they were sex symbols by any means, but they were well liked in the same vein that Rogen/Hill are now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainYooh
Exactly! How many modern commercials (except Viagra ads) can you recall right away with men being presented NOT as losers? Not whining sick, not stupidly staring at a bank teller, not following behind an athletic girl to talk to a car salesman, not asking an idiotic question about some simple home repair problem? I see this whole new thing about pushing the man-loser image not only as acceptable and charming but also as the norm that Holywood is adopting.
And yet the "modern men" who are underachievers and losers are still shown as getting the hot girls. He might look like a loser, but he's obviously still winning.
Men don't get seen as "desirable" because society teaches women that you can't be a sexual being and still be a lady. Women are taught from a young age to be pure and innocent and virginal, sexuality is frowned upon and discouraged. So for women to openly express lust or desire is less likely.
Men don't get seen as "desirable" because society teaches women that you can't be a sexual being and still be a lady. Women are taught from a young age to be pure and innocent and virginal, sexuality is frowned upon and discouraged. So for women to openly express lust or desire is less likely.
This really isn't as true as it used to be. Women have become a lot more comfortable with openly objectifying and desiring men, even in just the last couple years. Go read the comments section of any article to do with Ryan Gosling or Channing Tatum. Hell, my girlfriend gleefully told me how she spent an entire Friday night with one of her friends looking up his old stripper videos.
I believe there have also been more recent studies that show that the number of sexual partners women and men have over their lifetimes is evening up in Western society, especially among the younger demographic.
I agree there are still quite a few patriarchal fossils that look down on that kind of stuff, but I think it's decreasing with the younger generations and women who just flat out aren't giving as much of a #### anymore.
EDIT: I should probably add that I live in one of the most liberal cities in Canada, and you live in a blue-collar city in Pennsylvania, so our experiences probably differ.
I have always been annoyed when it is widely accepted that large segments of the female race are made to feel inferior due to models and media and all that jazz when there is totally an equal amount of males going through that same "I am a loser" thing.
For every girl crying at night that her boobs aren't big or is too fat there is a guy who feels the same way.
Yeah, there's been a pretty strong surge in male steroid use in the last decade, as well as a rise in eating disorders in men. It's not nearly as widespread as in women but it's still a concern.
Is your argument that feminism causes hollywood to present images of men as weak/inferior/stupid? ...
No. I don't believe that feminism has any significant effect on Hollywood. The original post started with this whole wanted/needed notion. I only pointed to the fact that today's presentation of male image in mass media has shifted dramatically towards weaker and dumber, while female image presentation is shifting towards stronger and smarter. This presentation imbalance does contribute to the feminist utopian belief of not needing men at all.
No. I don't believe that feminism has any significant effect on Hollywood. The original post started with this whole wanted/needed notion. I only pointed to the fact that today's presentation of male image in mass media has shifted dramatically towards weaker and dumber, while female image presentation is shifting towards stronger and smarter. This presentation imbalance does contribute to the feminist utopian belief of not needing men at all.
I say that's a perception which is not in any way borne out by an actual survey of what is being presented or watched on television or in the cinema.
How many weaker/dumber men can you find in the following:
2011 top 10 grossing films:
Harry Potter: Deathly Hallows 2, Transformers: Dark of the Moon, Twilight: Breaking Dawn 1, Hangover Part II, Pirates of the Caribbean: Stranger Tides, Fast Five, Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol, Cars 2, Sherlock Holmes: Game of Shadows, Thor.
2011 top rated time-shifted television:
American Horror Story, Covert Affairs, Suits, Franklin & Bash, Psych, Sons of Anarchy, White Collar, Justified, Fringe, The Glades
2012 top 10 grossing films:
The Avengers, The Dark Knight Rises, The Hunger Games, Skyfall, The Hobbit, Twilight: Breaking Dawn 2, Amazing Spider Man, Brave, Ted, Madagascar 3: Europe's Most Wanted.
2012 top 10 time-shifted television:
Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Covert Affairs, Suits, Justified, White Collar, Fringe, Sons of Anarchy, American Horror Story
Your perception of men as being shown as being dumber or weaker is not borne out when you see what people are actually watching, it is most likely something you have become individually conscious of and are therefore more attuned to and more likely to notice or perceive. I understand where this comes from, I get pissed too when I see dad about to send his kids out into a snowstorm in a commercial for DayQuil or whatever the hell that one is. But it is simply not the major depiction of men that we are shown in the media. For further evidence, take a look at the list of Nielsen's "most liked" advertising from 2011 and 2012
There just isn't a lot of the "men are dumb and weak" portrayal going on here. It is something that happens, but it's nowhere near as ubiquitous as you seem to think it is.
Hey, if women want the power, they can have it. I'd love to have a sugar momma so I can just hit the gym in the morning and meet my buddies for a beer in the afternoon so we can complain about how little our wives do around the house when they get home.
There just isn't a lot of the "men are dumb and weak" portrayal going on here. It is something that happens, but it's nowhere near as ubiquitous as you seem to think it is.
Well, I don't particularly think of it as some kind of an organized major attack on our collective manhood by the Hollywood. But from what I am observing, there is definitely a noticeable trend. Google up a contemporary media review article on ejump site, it is very controversial, but a good read. It does bring the rise of the man-loser theme popularity into the overall discussion. Although I do not agree with a lot of the conclusions there, I found it quite entertaining.
A fair point, but the converse of that is to examine the female roles in modern media and compare that to male roles.
Men may occasionally be portrayed as losers, but at least those losers have thoughts, opinions, and feelings, as opposed to breasts, vaginas, and the ability to get into trouble.
With the obvious exception of Hermione.
Hermione is mine. Go near her and I will f###ing cut you.
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Here's a good one for gender equality: We needed some serious work done for our yard and garden. Had four outfits coming over to do an estimate. Two girls and two guys. Girl 1 quote - $3,000, Girl 2 quote - $2,500. Guy 1 quote - $1,200. Guy 2 quote - $800. Same work, same everything. Girl 1 said that it wouldn't be worth her time to do it for less. I found it quite funny. We went with Guy 2 and ended up paying $1,000 with some extras. He and his partner did a great job and I threw in $100 more for them to have dinner on me.
Conclusion: if men are not needed, we will be paying a lot more for landscaping!
