Stay classy, Mens Rights Edmonton

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by valo403

It's not a false equivalence because I'm not comparing the two, I'm using it to point out the glaring flaw in your argument that because A didn't exist x number of years ago it isn't needed now. Things change and the needs of people change, this is not a complicated concept. You continue to ignore the fact that there could very well be reasons for such a group, including the shifting roles of men in society, changes in what masculine identity means and a variety of other gender issues. Instead of considering that there are issues that could be addressed, to the benefit of all, you dismiss the very notion, which is a really smart way to do things.

No need to get personal.

My argument doesn't exist in a vacuum, that much should be obvious. It's not like 2013 is some big milestone year for sensitive men, they've existed openly since the 80s.

Segue-way, that poster is taken straight from r/MensRights, a hate group that posts the most foul and disgusting things about women and their intellect, while simul-posting in r/Seddit trying to trick/drug/inebriate women into having sex with them.

They are posting that garbage in their own self-interest to be creepy gross PUAs.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Because it's a crappy catalyst for something important.

Folding your arms and holding your breath because your sister got a Barbie Dreamhouse doesn't make it any more necessary that you need one.

If they needed one before this, why had no one brought it up before the internet-fed MRA movement became so loud?

I see the the false rape accusation phenomenon (as trivial or serious as it is) is an example of the larger issue of misandry.

There is a problem with the way men are portrayed in popular culture and the (lack of) positive role models that aren't about solving problems with knuckles. Let alone role models that show a chivalrous approach to treating women.

People may think because other demographics (women, LBQT) have problems that problems men face in our culture are trivialized...and while I would not trade white male problems for any other demographics problems...it doesn't mean 'we' don't have problems and valid rights issues.

And this issue has been around before the internet...this is a good resource if interested.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Asking MRAs to be classy is like asking a fish to not be wet.

Painting with a rather wide brush there, aren't you?

[kirant]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

No need to get personal.

My argument doesn't exist in a vacuum, that much should be obvious. It's not like 2013 is some big milestone year for sensitive men, they've existed openly since the 80s.

I don't think that varies the problem that is in your argument: just because it's new and not argued sooner doesn't make it more or less valid. How they came up with the idea, who they are, nor what colour their underwear is matters (generally) in the eyes of whether or not something should be looked at seriously. The same applies here. It's very possible, for example, that some issue has been missed for 30+ years. By same stretch, couldn't we say that no new issues should be identified by women's groups?

For full disclosure, I'm actually more on the side of women's rights, but I think the logic you're applying may not make perfect sense, especially basing on what year it is and how long it has been since the movement started.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Disagree. I think there is a need for support services for men. There are a lot of angry dudes out there. Regardless if you or I think the origins of the anger are wrong or misplaced, it still needs to be dealt with.

I believe men still statistically outnumber women in substance abuse and suicide rates. There are certainly enough escalating problems among young men to justify the existence of a support group.

I would also suggest the present small existence of such groups has more to do with our current and historical normative views on masculinity than anything else.

Fully agree with this. There's a notion that when men have problems they are supposed to be stoic about it and never tell anyone and just deal with it themselves. Places or forums for support can only help. Also furthermore, having resources in place where men can go for help with issues actually might help out in reducing violence against women. A well-adjusted man isn't a man who beats or rapes women.

That all said the guys who started the false rape accusation piece to 'fight back' against the 'don't be that guy' campaign are completely out to lunch. Perpetuating another incorrect stereotype about women does nothing to correct the injustice of the inital stereotype. It perpetuates exactly the same line of thinking but at another target gender, one who practically speaking deserves that kind of generalizing less.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

No need to get personal.

My argument doesn't exist in a vacuum, that much should be obvious. It's not like 2013 is some big milestone year for sensitive men, they've existed openly since the 80s.

Segue-way, that poster is taken straight from r/MensRights, a hate group that posts the most foul and disgusting things about women and their intellect, while simul-posting in r/Seddit trying to trick/drug/inebriate women into having sex with them.

They are posting that garbage in their own self-interest to be creepy gross PUAs.

Not sure where I got personal, I simply countered your position.

The world has changed significantly for men in the last 20-30 years, and I'd say that we're only just getting to the point where ideas of masculinity have changed enough to make the idea of men asking for help at all generally accepted. Dismissing something that has the potential to help a great number of people, both male and female, as "[f]olding your arms and holding your breath because your sister got a Barbie Dreamhouse" displays a tremendous amount of ignorance, and is quite honestly the type of attitude that poisons strong gender relations. Save that garbage for things like guys complaining about women only health clubs, not situations where inquiries are made about support groups.

[PsYcNeT]

Inquiries being made by the same guys who post that ####ing enraging #### like those posters deserve to have their motives scrutinized.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Inquiries being made by the same guys who post that ####ing enraging #### like those posters deserve to have their motives scrutinized.

Care to tell me how you came to the bizarre conclusion that these are the same people?

[PsYcNeT]

Poor reading skills.

[The Ditch]

Let me, as a white male, explain why minorities and women have it better, first

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by SebC

I find it telling that "don't make false rape accusations" is somehow an example of rape culture.

Sorry I don't follow. What's it "telling" you?

[Matata]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

Let me, as a white male, explain why minorities and women have it better, first

my heart yearns for the day that the straight white male can get a fair shake in this world

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Sorry I don't follow. What's it "telling" you?

That there are people who will take their anti-rape campaign too far, if left unchecked.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by SebC

That there are people who will take their anti-rape campaign too far, if left unchecked.

ah yes, the overly agressive anti-rape campaigns that are maligning men everywhere.

Rape doesn't happen without rapists. Sexual assault is not a "women's rights" issue. It's a societal issue. And the solution to the problem starts with men.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Peanut

ah yes, the overly agressive anti-rape campaigns that are maligning men everywhere.

Rape doesn't happen without rapists. Sexual assault is not a "women's rights" issue. It's a societal issue. And the solution to the problem starts with men.

Everyone has a role to play. The whole 'you have to fix it' attitude doesn't get anyone anywhere, it just creates unnecessary bitterness by placing blame on individuals who have done nothing wrong.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by valo403

Everyone has a role to play. The whole 'you have to fix it' attitude doesn't get anyone anywhere, it just creates unnecessary bitterness by placing blame on individuals who have done nothing wrong.

Like women that are raped?


Rape ####ing disgusts me and angers me as a man. There is no defendable reason for rape, none, none at all.

[MelBridgeman]

This was done in poor taste but that seems to be the way groups like this get the conversation started - which itself is sad - the frequency of something happening does not diminish it's seriousness. Making false accusations can ruin peoples lives.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Like women that are raped?


Rape ####ing disgusts me and angers me as a man. There is no defendable reason for rape, none, none at all.

Uh what? How exactly did you make that massive leap? Absolutely nothing in my post even insinuates that any blame lies with a victim.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by valo403

Everyone has a role to play. The whole 'you have to fix it' attitude doesn't get anyone anywhere, it just creates unnecessary bitterness by placing blame on individuals who have done nothing wrong.

I posted a TED talk about this very issue 1.5 months ago. Women and women's rights groups are working very hard to try and combat sexual assaults, empower people to report assaults, etc. I'm not "blaming" anyone. I'm saying men need to take a stand in these issues as well. Women can't solve it alone when in the vast majority of cases it's men doing the raping and women/children (including boys) who are the victims.

[Young-Sneezy]

well, i did actually read an article on this today and i did agree with one point:



One article argued that the ads DO kind of demonize men... I personally dont find it offensive to my gender, but I can see where they are going with it. Its just like that friend that takes things WAY to far for shock value and everyone goes "WHOOAAAAA BUDDY"

I think there is a lot more written between the lines of these issues, which would allow us to make an actual argument one way or the other. I'm not going to get into it for sake of being mauled by the just and righteous on cp...