Ethical Shopping Means More than Comparing Price

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Yeah I'm sure the kids in Bangladesh will be ecstatic when they're out of work back in the city dumpster.

Note to OP, not everyone has a cushy government (read: taxpayer funded) job.

As was mentioned, sweatshops are horribly exploitative, and even as global competition increases, they're not really getting any better. That is often the argument that is used by the pro industry, pro cheap labour crowd. Eventually if all the cheap labour gets sourced out, salaries will have to go up. Supply and demand right? That's your thing, the market will fix everything in time.

But often it gets worse, because new countries are also competing to be the source for cheap labour. It's doubtful we'll ever be at a stage where 'normal market conditions' actually work in favor for these people.

So to be a responsible community, a middle ground does need to be achieved. I have long thought an international minimum wage would be a good thing, but I have no idea how that could ever be pulled off.

And when I say minimum wage, I don't mean a western style minimum wage, but one that would allow cheap labour to be attractive to their governments and keep enough factories in these countries to give these people jobs, but not so low that it's completely exploitative.

Maybe the bigger thing would be, like this Bangladesh incident, to have stricter international standards, and tougher fines for companies who put their workers at risk, even if it is through a third party.

Of course, again, I have no idea how you get that ball in motion. As many have argued before, if people knew where their products came from, they could pressure their companies, or at least vote with their wallet by not buying from them. And that in turn would cause them to behave better.

For instance, Joe Fresh brand are very worried that they are going to suffer noticeable public pressure from this incident and it's bad press. That's why they were so quick to say they were going to help the families of the victims.

Doing it as cheap as possible is great, until you're doing it so cheap it hurts by bottom line by bringing bad press. Which isn't often, not nearly as often as it should. But it does happen.

So yeah, consumers can help, but it's a tough uphill slog.

As for the OP, I too was confused with the point that he was trying to make if there was one. I'm not sure ethical shopping ever meant anything about price. Except for the fact that's it's usually more expensive to buy with a conscience. Not counting obvious big ticket items like cars and stuff. Mostly food and clothing etc.

Also to the OP's comment about, 'I can't believe this hasn't been commented on,' it does get commented on in lots of threads. It's such a large issue it has shown up in lots of threads about goods or politics. I don't know how you narrow it down to a all-encompassing thread.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by peter12

Sweatshops are excellent things for the poor. Buy more goods from overseas, you protectionist xenophobe.

Originally Posted by peter12

Actually a very liberal perspective. I am not a conservative in any shape or form.

Yes, that's exactly what I find from reading your posts, a liberal perspective.

Maybe your schooling was, and actually it often is, but that's not your lens at all. Like, at... all...

I do agree that factories are needed overseas and I do agree that they give people who might normally be able to make a salary, a chance. And yes, that's a good thing in concept. Necessary even.

I yield that it's a very complicated situation.

But to say they are great is being completely blind to a variety of issues. Not to mention a complete ignorance of the conditions these people are in. Plus probably a lack of empathy, or at least an 'It's too big a problem, I don't care, hey I get my goods cheap,' attitude. It absolutely needs to be done better, and if boycotting certain companies helps, it should definitely be done.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Daradon

As for the OP, I too was confused with the point that he was trying to make if there was one. I'm not sure ethical shopping ever meant anything about price. Except for the fact that's it's usually more expensive to buy with a conscience. Not counting obvious big ticket items like cars and stuff. Mostly food and clothing etc.

Also to the OP's comment about, 'I can't believe this hasn't been commented on,' it does get commented on in lots of threads. It's such a large issue it has shown up in lots of threads about goods or politics. I don't know how you narrow it down to a all-encompassing thread.

The thread title was a shortened version of the CBC article's title.

I did a search on "Bangladesh" and nothing recent came up.

[Rathji]

Not that I disagree with the concept of Ethical shopping, but how is basing your purchase solely on the income of a country where something is made a reasonable one?

Maybe they earn $2000 a year but that feeds their entire family in a much higher standard than the rest of the community. Maybe the company isn't a sweatshop, but is actually improving the lifestyle of the people they are employing.

Just seems like a random and lazy easy of doing things.

[Devils'Advocate]

I agree that his analysis was beyond simplistic. But that's my whole conundrum. I would buy from developing countries if I knew that the workers made a living wage, had good safe working conditions and there were no children working the factory floor. But the fact is that we don't know. And that is awesome for big companies because most people want to assume that THEIR clothes are made from good companies and e dry one see is made in sweatshops.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I would buy from developing countries if I knew that the workers made a living wage, had good safe working conditions and there were no children working the factory floor. But the fact is that we don't know.

... and so, you're willing to throw the good out with the bad?

[oilyfan]

So we should only buy products from countries with average incomes? And how exactly are these incomes going to rise without them selling products?

China was in the same spot a decade ago and now in some major cities the minimum wage is higher than in some southern US states. That didn't happen because China stopped selling goods.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I had no idea CBC ... was this poor...

Your tax dollars at work.

[Ducay]

Let me guess, you also only eat produce that was harvested by people making a good wage too? Oh wait, that would mean you're not eating.....ever.

I like buying from Canada or US if I can because I know, generally, the workmenship will be slightly better, nothing to do with who made it.
These unskilled jobs have moved elsewhere and we're all better off for it.

[mykalberta]

I didnt know Stanfield were made in Canada. I will have to try a pair, if they are comfortable I will buy them. If not then they will be the first and last purchase I make. Currently all I wear is Joe Boxer as they are the most comfortable of the brands I have tried.

Whats the general Nova Scotian view of a oil pipeline, is it favourable or unfavourable?

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Let me guess, you also only eat produce that was harvested by people making a good wage too? Oh wait, that would mean you're not eating.....ever.

I like buying from Canada or US if I can because I know, generally, the workmenship will be slightly better, nothing to do with who made it.
These unskilled jobs have moved elsewhere and we're all better off for it.

Depending on which grocery store you buy from, 25-30% of produce is locally grown... There are certain things you can't get local, but there is a fair amount of local stuff.

[cral12]

I recall from Dragon's Den a couple local guys (+ maybe a couple of other Canadians) landed a deal for their website Ethical Ocean. Here's the link if interested; wonder how they are doing now?
Link:
http://www.ethicalocean.com/

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Daradon

As was mentioned, sweatshops are horribly exploitative, and even as global competition increases, they're not really getting any better. That is often the argument that is used by the pro industry, pro cheap labour crowd. Eventually if all the cheap labour gets sourced out, salaries will have to go up. Supply and demand right? That's your thing, the market will fix everything in time.

But often it gets worse, because new countries are also competing to be the source for cheap labour. It's doubtful we'll ever be at a stage where 'normal market conditions' actually work in favor for these people.

So to be a responsible community, a middle ground does need to be achieved. I have long thought an international minimum wage would be a good thing, but I have no idea how that could ever be pulled off.

And when I say minimum wage, I don't mean a western style minimum wage, but one that would allow cheap labour to be attractive to their governments and keep enough factories in these countries to give these people jobs, but not so low that it's completely exploitative.

Maybe the bigger thing would be, like this Bangladesh incident, to have stricter international standards, and tougher fines for companies who put their workers at risk, even if it is through a third party.

Of course, again, I have no idea how you get that ball in motion. As many have argued before, if people knew where their products came from, they could pressure their companies, or at least vote with their wallet by not buying from them. And that in turn would cause them to behave better.

For instance, Joe Fresh brand are very worried that they are going to suffer noticeable public pressure from this incident and it's bad press. That's why they were so quick to say they were going to help the families of the victims.

Doing it as cheap as possible is great, until you're doing it so cheap it hurts by bottom line by bringing bad press. Which isn't often, not nearly as often as it should. But it does happen.

So yeah, consumers can help, but it's a tough uphill slog.

As for the OP, I too was confused with the point that he was trying to make if there was one. I'm not sure ethical shopping ever meant anything about price. Except for the fact that's it's usually more expensive to buy with a conscience. Not counting obvious big ticket items like cars and stuff. Mostly food and clothing etc.

Also to the OP's comment about, 'I can't believe this hasn't been commented on,' it does get commented on in lots of threads. It's such a large issue it has shown up in lots of threads about goods or politics. I don't know how you narrow it down to a all-encompassing thread.

To add to this a little.

What OP is proposing is essentially a boycott of all goods manufactured in low income countries. The problem is pulling out all that industry is just going to tank those lower end economies even further and result in even worse living conditions.

As for your point that the sweat shops aren't increasing the standard of living, well that's just not true. There are hundreds of millions of people in India and China who were living below the poverty line 20 years ago, who aren't now. Both countries initially based their economies on manufacturing and agriculture.

Maybe the solution is finding companies that do use forieng labour but provide good working conditions....not really sure how you would monitor that. Perhaps cameras broadcasting feeds over the internet.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by blankall

To add to this a little.

What OP is proposing is essentially a boycott of all goods manufactured in low income countries. The problem is pulling out all that industry is just going to tank those lower end economies even further and result in even worse living conditions.

As for your point that the sweat shops aren't increasing the standard of living, well that's just not true. There are hundreds of millions of people in India and China who were living below the poverty line 20 years ago, who aren't now. Both countries initially based their economies on manufacturing and agriculture.

Maybe the solution is finding companies that do use forieng labour but provide good working conditions....not really sure how you would monitor that. Perhaps cameras broadcasting feeds over the internet.

The last part is what I agree with, instead of punitively destroying an economy you can reward one with your money.

With most of these companies that use foreign manufacturing I'm pretty sure that a review of their disclosures would reveal who's doing what in terms of manufacturing.

I think sweatshops are a terrible thing, however a boycott doesn't really help the people who make their only income from it, and the owners under pressure would shut it down and start up a new sweat shop under a different name.

[Flabbibulin]

I have been buying boxers/briefs and socks from winners for years- half the price and the exact same stuff as The Bay

[Regular_John]

Many years ago I went out of my way to purchase a pair of "100% union made, sweat shop free, organic, vegan, fair trade" shoes online. Got robbed on shipping & customs and this simple pair of sneakers ended up costing me over $100... and they were crap.

They were comfortable enough but it seemed like they started falling apart within just a few weeks. Despite having paid about 40% more than the "evil corporate" shoes I would normally buy they were no where near the same quality. I just checked and I've noticed the company I bought the shoes from is still around... but they've discontinued selling shoes.

So while it's nice to shop ethically if a comparable product is being produced, the "ethics" have to go both ways, you still need to provide a valuable service/product to the end user.

It's overly simplistic to say "third world factory A is better than third world factory B" when there's a lot more at play then just the average wage.

[polak]

Making the world a better place, one man thong at time, aren't you?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Not that I disagree with the concept of Ethical shopping, but how is basing your purchase solely on the income of a country where something is made a reasonable one?

Maybe they earn $2000 a year but that feeds their entire family in a much higher standard than the rest of the community. Maybe the company isn't a sweatshop, but is actually improving the lifestyle of the people they are employing.

Just seems like a random and lazy easy of doing things.

Are you kidding me? This seems way too hard for something like buying underwear!

My decision making process when buying underwear:

- Are they closest to the checkout

Done.

[CaptainCrunch]

I go commando its my own little protest against Globalization and the 1% and all of that crap.

Occupy CP!!!

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Depending on which grocery store you buy from, 25-30% of produce is locally grown... There are certain things you can't get local, but there is a fair amount of local stuff.

I'd love to see the selection at the store that sells 30% locally grown.

There are only so many items you can grow commerically in a hothouse in Alberta.

And even then, I'd love to see what they're paying the foreign help at harvest time. (For seasonal crops)