Building The Flames Defense For 2013/14

[Jake]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

Really? Why? I was pretty anti-Wideman when we signed him and even I think he's been alright. At the very, very least I think he's been better than dumping for garbage.

Especially when there are so few other options out there. Not sure why people want to dump Wideman.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by PeteLFan

I'd say 3 years 10 million.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think that is high. He has been great in the later half of this season, but remember that really has only been 20 games.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Here is the Flames Defense:

7 T.J. Brodie 6-1 185
44 Chris Butler 6-1 200

42 Mark Cundari 5-10 200
5 Mark Giordano 6-0 203
6 Cory Sarich 6-4 207
27 Derek Smith 6-2 200
26 Dennis Wideman 6-0 196


well Modelling after the current NHL SC Champs the LA Kings ..... they dominated the playoffs with this defense:

8 Drew Doughty 23 6-0 212
2 Matt Greene 29 6-3 232
27 Alec Martinez 25 6-1 206
7 Rob Scuderi 34 6-1 219
26 Slava Voynov 23 5-11 199

and Willie Mitchell 6-3 209 who has missed this year....... do you replace Mitchel with ????? Regehr 6-3 225

The spare parts on the Kings D...Muzzin 6-2 217 and Ellerby 6-4 200



Almost all of the playoff teams have team defence that is 2 inches taller and 10-15 lbs heavier than the Flames currently are.


The Flames need to have 2 more d-men who are bigger than the guys they currently have.....

Carson 6'4 210
Breen 6'7 224
Babchuk 6'5 200
Lamb 6'1 215
Martin 6'1 200
Wotherspoon 6'1 196
Ramage 6'1 183

There's more to it than just size.

[neo45]

Phoenix is a good trading partner if you're looking to trade for a D, given the really weak group of FA's available.

They have OEL (who isn't going anywhere), then guys like Yandle, Michalek, Klesla, Morris, Summers, Schlemko, Stone, and Rundblad. They don't need 9 NHL defenseman, especially when their 2 best prospects are also D-men.

Out of the free agent defensemen I don't see the Flames getting any good deals. Most likely deals that are one year too long, at a price too high, and hard to move until the player is approaching UFA status. Maybe a guy like Streit ($$$$$) because he could teach Brodie how to put up 40+ points a year

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Jake

Especially when there are so few other options out there. Not sure why people want to dump Wideman.

People don't, just moon. moon has some "unique" opinions on the Flames.

[TurnedTheCorner]

He's an easy target since he's the highest paid D. If he wasn't here, Gio would get targeted instead. It comes with the territory.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

He's an easy target since he's the highest paid D. If he wasn't here, Gio would get targeted instead. It comes with the territory.

True. Some people are obsessed with getting max value from contracts and hate on some of the highest paid players on the team because they hold them to impossibly high standards due to their cap hit. We saw it for years with J-Bo.

I mean I'm not crazy about Wideman's deal either and wasn't at the time but he does provide some things that are hard to find (right shooter, nice point shot, good puck mover, veteran, etc.) No reason to think he'll be going anywhere and certainly no reason to dump him for nothing.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I don't think we have to look outside the organization. I suppose if a team in cap trouble needs to dump a big, physical top 4 guy then we should consider that. If a team like the Sabres wanted to cut bait from a guy like Tyler Myers I think we should inquire. But outside of those unlikely scenarios I think we should be looking to give opportunity to our young D. Brodie has blossomed into a potential #2 defenseman IMO.

Brodie-Wideman
Giordano-????
Cundari/Breen/Smith/Butler/Sarich

I have to agree with Roof-Daddy yet again. We have 3 guys who are clear top 4 d-men and then 5 guys who are likely 5-7 guys. I think we can roll with that unless Feaster finds some great trade options.

Sarich was scratched for a lot of the early part of this season and could be dealt at the draft or at next years trade deadline if Feaster gets a reasonable offer for him and he's still willing to waive the NMC. Kind of surprised he wasn't dealt this deadline. If he stays he's a reasonable vet but I wouldn't want him holding anybody back.

[Kaine]

Originally Posted by Jake

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think that is high. He has been great in the later half of this season, but remember that really has only been 20 games.

Brodie has been steadily improving all season, he hasn't just looked good in the last 20 or so he's been very good considering where he was 2 years ago, and last year.

A young Dman making the incredible strides he has, someone that has been playing 25-30 minutes a game since Jbo left and has not looked at all out of place doing it, I don't think 3 million give or take a season is far fetched at all for a player like Brodie. At the very worst he looks like a good 3/4 Dman (I would argue hes going to be a 1-2 guy in a couple years at this rate) but 3 million for a 3-4 guy is pretty good imo.

[moon]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

Really? Why? I was pretty anti-Wideman when we signed him and even I think he's been alright. At the very, very least I think he's been better than dumping for garbage.

Wiseman has been awful this year in the first year of a long term huge money deal. If he isnt close to a good value in year one of his deal unlikely he will come close to good value as he ages.

He is pathetic in his own zone and not close to good enough to make up for it offensively. Time to dump his albatross contract as soon as possible so it doesn't drag us down when we are ready to compete.

[Alberta_Beef]

We will still be rebuilding next season and the UFA crop is very weak, so I would go with what we have. We could keep 8 defensemen up like we did this season and re-sign all of Breen, Cundari, Butler & Brodie and run with:

Brodie - Giordano
Butler - Wideman
Cundari/Breen - Sarich/Smith

The if Breen or Cundari have a bad camp they can start the year in Abbotsford. I am also not against trying to sneak Smith down to Abbotsford on waivers as they could really use a top pairing AHL defensemen next year of they don't have Breen or Cundari.

[dying4acup]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I don't think we have to look outside the organization. I suppose if a team in cap trouble needs to dump a big, physical top 4 guy then we should consider that. If a team like the Sabres wanted to cut bait from a guy like Tyler Myers I think we should inquire. But outside of those unlikely scenarios I think we should be looking to give opportunity to our young D. Brodie has blossomed into a potential #2 defenseman IMO.

Brodie-Wideman
Giordano-????
Cundari/Breen/Smith/Butler/Sarich

I have to agree with Roof-Daddy yet again. We have 3 guys who are clear top 4 d-men and then 5 guys who are likely 5-7 guys. I think we can roll with that unless Feaster finds some great trade options.

Sarich was scratched for a lot of the early part of this season and could be dealt at the draft or at next years trade deadline if Feaster gets a reasonable offer for him and he's still willing to waive the NMC. Kind of surprised he wasn't dealt this deadline. If he stays he's a reasonable vet but I wouldn't want him holding anybody back.

I wouldn't be bothered about bringing back Carson, but I don't know much.

Gotta be honest. I don't hate butler. Had he been introduced as a third pair guy and worked his way up, I dont think ALL others would either. Doesn't help that he was traded for Regehr.

Sink or swim. Remember, this team has nothing to lose. And I want to see why 3 of our coaches and 2 of our GMs believe Breen is an NHL-calibre defenseman. I like what I've seen of him. He's, I think, 24 now, so we better figure it out now.

[FAN]

I would look to trade Butler for a mid-round pick if possible. Otherwise, re-sign him to a one year contract for depth purposes. He's not a top 4 defenseman and really won't become one. He's a 6th/7th defenseman on a good team.

It's slim pickings this year as far as UFA defensemen are concerned. I would look into signing Ron Hainsey to a 2-3 year contract for $3-3.5M. He's a capable #4 defenseman who has really turned into a solid defenseman. Grant Clitsome would be a nice Butler replacement but no need to overpay. The other option is to explore the trade route. Maybe try to pick up a guy like Meszaros (2nd-3rd round pick) or Ballard (6th or 7th round pick) for cheap... guys who can play a top 4 role on this team and fit into Hartley's system.

Originally Posted by moon

Wiseman has been awful this year in the first year of a long term huge money deal. If he isnt close to a good value in year one of his deal unlikely he will come close to good value as he ages.

He is pathetic in his own zone and not close to good enough to make up for it offensively. Time to dump his albatross contract as soon as possible so it doesn't drag us down when we are ready to compete.

I think Wideman has pretty much come as advertised. He has 6 goals and 22 points including 4 PP goals. That's in line with the type of offensive production expected of him. Anybody who has seen Wideman play will tell you that he can be an absolute liability on the defense end. His defensive deficiencies is simply magnified by the fact that this team isn't good defensively and he plays so many minutes. Whether you think his offense makes up for his defensive struggles is debatable, but he's really been no worse than he has been throughout his career.

[Da_Chief]

Trade: Stempniak for Klesla

Let Babchuk go, don't re-sign Butler either.

Brodie-Wideman (ultimately need to find a partner for Brodie long-term/top pair dman)
Giordano-Klesla (moving forward good defensive duo and veteran)
xxxx-xxxx Open for competition (Cundari/Breen/Smith/Lamb/Martin)

Love Sarich but he shouldn't need to waste his time in a re-build, any veteran team would love to have him.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally Posted by moon

Wiseman has been awful this year in the first year of a long term huge money deal. If he isnt close to a good value in year one of his deal unlikely he will come close to good value as he ages.

He is pathetic in his own zone and not close to good enough to make up for it offensively. Time to dump his albatross contract as soon as possible so it doesn't drag us down when we are ready to compete.

Clearly, you have not noticed how much improved the Flames PP has been this year.

[puckedoff]

Originally Posted by moon

Wiseman has been awful this year in the first year of a long term huge money deal. If he isnt close to a good value in year one of his deal unlikely he will come close to good value as he ages.

...

How is his value relative to his contract even relevant? If we dump him for picks we'd probably be below the floor.... What's important is that he's a legitimate top 4 player and is a threat on the power play. He may be overpaid but its not my money and he makes the team better. Period.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by puckedoff

[Wideman] makes the team better. Period.

I think Moon is arguing that Wideman doesn't make this team better. I think it's a fair argument.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by FAN

I think Moon is arguing that Wideman doesn't make this team better. I think it's a fair argument.

Wideman doesn't make the team any better (other then the PP and outlet passes), but he sure isn't the ''disaster'' other people have made him out to be. He would be an excellent complimentary player on a good team. However he is playing top pairing minutes here and IMO he isn't suited for that role.

I think if a great offer comes along he should be traded. But otherwise I think that we need a PPQB on the backend, regardless. No one else on the team plays that role better then Wideman.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Carson 6'4 210
Breen 6'7 224
Babchuk 6'5 200
Lamb 6'1 215
Martin 6'1 200
Wotherspoon 6'1 196
Ramage 6'1 183

There's more to it than just size.

You are pointing out that there are 3 guys in the Flames organization that are not small skilled defenseman, and one has NHL experience... and he plays like he has eggs in pants that he doesn't want to break.


The main point that I am attempting to make is that the Flames have been dressing 5 D-men for every game that are significantly smaller than the average NHL defenseman.

The biggest and easiest improvement the Flames have to make to their defense is to get some average sized NHL calibre defensemen. It would be better to get a couple of guys that are above average NHL size so that Gio and Wideman who are just a bit undersized can play bigger without having to do all the heavy work required by successful NHL defense corps.


Can I get an agreement that Karlson is the elite small skilled d-man in the league? He won the Norris last year and is 6' 175... He is not expected to knock people over or win puck battles in the corner.

Who were his defensive mates in his Norris season:

Kubba 6-4 235
Gonchar 6-2 206
Phillips 6-3 221
Cowen 6-5 228

This year Kuba left .... did they replace him with a 6' 195 Wideman???

No they went out and got 6-3 231 Methot.

This year with karlson being out Phillips, Cowen and Methot are putting in 20+ minutes / game protecting 6-2 206 Gonchar.

There was a reason that Ottawa had Smith playing in the minors. He was the best non-NHL d-man on lottery pick team (25th place in Smith's last year in Ottawa org) and they gave him away for a 2-way contract.

Brodie might be as good as Karlsson .... will he be able to have the artistic freedom playing with the undersized Flames?

If Brodie were carrying the Flames into the playoffs what sort of beating would he be targeted to take in a playoff series?

The only guy that would be run as much or more would be the Flames goalie.

[PeteMoss]

Gonchar sure is a menace out there.

But I do agree they need some size on the back end. A guy like Methot would have been a good fit. Someone big who can play in the top four would be ideal, but I doubt that guys is coming at this point.