The Flames Not As Weak As Many Believe

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by toquester

They not only had success on other teams, but they have had success on this team, this year. It was the team that had no success.

The Flames have the worst GAA in the league. You can't blame that on the forwards. Let me qualify that. You can blame that on the forwards and the system, but no matter how well you play defensively, if every time the team makes a mistake, the puck is in the net, you give up. That is the way things have been this year.

And when do goalies start taking some heat for this mess?

When forwards and defensemen allow cross ice passes, 2 on 1s and other high percentage plays with alarming frequency, then it's not surprising that goals are being scored at too high of a rate. Partially it is Kipper's fault, but there is a ton of blame to go around. Also the reason why the forwards are scoring more is because they are not playing sound defense. The wingers are always too high in their own end. It creates some goals for but, more against

[Flames in 07]

Right now they are the worst team in hockey. And its not because they are too young, its because they are too old.

[moon]

The OP is right it isn't as weak as many believe it is weaker.

The defensive group is likely the worst in the league. Brodie and Giordano are far from standouts. Brodie has had a decent year for a younger guy as a 4th round pick but still makes a ton of mistakes out there. Giordano has had a nightmare season. Wideman is a disaster in his own end and not close to good enough offensively to make up for it. Butler is terrible. Smith and Sarich are what they are 6t/7th defensemen. Babchuk should be in the KHL.

The forwards are made up of small, weak, defensively clueless secondary players. That is an awful core to build around and again possibly the worst forward core in the league going forward.

With Kipper seeming to be feeling the effects of his age and all the games played the last 10 years goaltending again a terrible group.

This team is looking at a 3-4 year rebuild at least and maybe longer if they miss on one of their top picks. They are missing top level talent at every position and realisitically need a top line, top defensive pairing and number 1 goalie. It doesn't appear those needs are going to be replaced by things we have on the team/in system.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Do you have a short memory? Cammalleri was pretty good in LA, Tanguay was very good before coming to Calgary, Stempniak had had a lot of success previously. Glencross was a role player before he got here, that's it.

That was LONG ago. They all sucked prior to coming to the Flames last time (i.e. Cammy from MTL and Tanguay from TBL). And Stempniak NEVER had much of success, he only scored 20+ goals twice and never had 60-poins season.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Our individuals had no success on other teams before coming to the Flames either. To some extent Hudler is exception, but Tanguay, Cammalleri, Glencross, Stempniak all sucked in their previous teams before arriving here.

To say that they sucked is a little ignorant. There are two Stanley Cup champions on your list, and the other guys who have put up decent numbers over their careers. Teams woudn't have been clamoring for Glencross if he totally sucked.

The problem is not with the individuals, but the roles they are expected to play. We have a lot of decent 2nd/3rd liners on this team....but no elite 1st liners. Yet we put these guys in those 1st line roles because we have to, and then complain when don't deliver. If you're really expecting any more out of Hudler or Stempniak or Glencross than what you saw this season, you're going to be disappointed. They are what they are.

[toquester]

As much as goaltending can take a team a long way in the playoffs, it can also pull the rug out from under a team. It results in everyone second guessing everything they are doing and it makes for mistakes up front.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by toquester

As much as goaltending can take a team a long way in the playoffs, it can also pull the rug out from under a team. It results in everyone second guessing everything they are doing and it makes for mistakes up front.

You're not seriously suggesting we'd be fine with better goaltending are you?

[toquester]

Originally Posted by flameswin

You're not seriously suggesting we'd be fine with better goaltending are you?

I did not say the team would be fine with better goaltending. There have been holes with this team for years even with good goaltending. The bad goaltending just emphasizes the suckage and turns the team from adequate, to terrible.

[kyuss275]

Even if they had kept Iggy and JBO, all they would have had is maybe 1 more win.

I don't think some realise how bad this team is because of the shortened season. If this team had a fulll 82 games and pre season, they would have been out of it by the start of December. As time went on this season i watched teams that got of to slow starts get better. The flames never improved and seemed to have peaked at game 5.

Probably the worst collection of forwards that don't like to play in their own zone.

[toquester]

Let me just say this:

If this team is as terrible as it has been suggested, then they may as well dump the majority of players, and then you would be looking at a long, long time before you are half decent.

Just imagine a team like the Washington Capitals and the decades, not years, of poor performance before they became decent. Start from scratch and that is the type of task you are facing.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Pointman

That was LONG ago. They all sucked prior to coming to the Flames last time (i.e. Cammy from MTL and Tanguay from TBL). And Stempniak NEVER had much of success, he only scored 20+ goals once and never had 60-poins season.

Stempniak has 1 season with 27 goals in St.Louis and one with 28 (split between Toronto and Phoneix) his career high in pts is only 52pts though

[Redrum]

I know what the OP means. The team has a lot of raw talent even after the trades. It's just poorly constructed. What do we have like 8 LWers, 2 RW, and 2 centers? Also mostly small soft forwards and defencemen. We have a boatload more talent than say Phoenix, although that isn't saying much. This is just kind of a group of parts that don't really fit and have no "identity".

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by moon

The OP is right it isn't as weak as many believe it is weaker.

The defensive group is likely the worst in the league. Brodie and Giordano are far from standouts. Brodie has had a decent year for a younger guy as a 4th round pick but still makes a ton of mistakes out there. Giordano has had a nightmare season. Wideman is a disaster in his own end and not close to good enough offensively to make up for it. Butler is terrible. Smith and Sarich are what they are 6t/7th defensemen. Babchuk should be in the KHL.

The forwards are made up of small, weak, defensively clueless secondary players. That is an awful core to build around and again possibly the worst forward core in the league going forward.

With Kipper seeming to be feeling the effects of his age and all the games played the last 10 years goaltending again a terrible group.

This team is looking at a 3-4 year rebuild at least and maybe longer if they miss on one of their top picks. They are missing top level talent at every position and realisitically need a top line, top defensive pairing and number 1 goalie. It doesn't appear those needs are going to be replaced by things we have on the team/in system.

Agreed with every point.

The rebuild will take a while because the team currently has very few pieces to build around. Giordano was/is going to be very important going forward but for some reason he has completely lost it recently. Hopefully the past season and a half was just an anomaly for him, otherwise that leaves a gigantic hole. Brodie is solid but will be a support player and probably not a leader on defense.

Backlund is also a secondary player. What we have with Sven remains to be seen and guys like Gaudreau and Jankowski are at least a couple of years away still.

There's a ton of work and prudent drafting/development to be done.

[ricardodw]

The Flames system is to score more goals than they let in. The forwards are not supposed to prevent goals.

Here is the Flames scoring stats extrapolated over an 82 game schedule:

player , , Pts82 , , Goals82
Mike Cammalleri, LW , , 63 , , 27
Jarome Iginla, RW† , , 58 , , 24
Alex Tanguay, LW , , 58 , , 22
Curtis Glencross, LW , , 55 , , 34
Lee Stempniak, RW , , 55 , , 16
Jiri Hudler, LW , , 53 , , 17
Matt Stajan, C , , 51 , , 11
Dennis Wideman, D , , 44 , , 11
Mikael Backlund, C , , 41 , , 22
Jay Bouwmeester, D#† , , 37 , , 15
Roman Cervenka, C , , 33 , , 14




1 30 goal scorer , 5 20+ goal scorers, 7 players over 50 pts

Hudler is having a near career year 53 pts is better than last years 50 and close to his 57 he had in 08-09

Stempniak's 55 points is a career year.... He got 52 in 06-07 and 48 in 09-10

Wideman had 50 pts in 08-09 with Boston and 46 last year His 44 is a great year for him

Stajan's 51 points is with striking distance of his career year of 57 that earned him his long term contract.

Try to point out the player that you expected to do better....... The only guy I see having an off year stats wise is Iginla.

I think that this team would totally dominate the Swiss league that Hartley is coaching this team to be.

My biggest question is why the biggest best checking centre in the system , Blair Jones, the only person in that type in the organization, is playing in the AHL? He got 11 games at 8:51 / game in the NHL before he was banished.

When did Hartley and Feaster start the drive for a lottery pick.

I think that we have enough skilled scorers to be a playoff team. The question is how hard will it be to find 4-5 Blair Jone's type's to win some hockey games.

[DuffMan]

I'd bet the Flames are #1 in giving up goals in the first minute and giving up goals in the first 5 minutes.

and that's weak.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by flameswin

You're not seriously suggesting we'd be fine with better goaltending are you?

I think we'd have had better than 50/50 odds of making the playoffs if Kipper played as well as he did last season. Of course, then we'd have hung onto Iginla and Bouwmeester and probably been worse for it in the long run, but this wasn't a terrible team to start the year. They just lost faith in Kipper and started playing every game like they used to play in front of the long list of backup goalies they didn't trust.

[Vinny01]

I do think this current flames team is probably the worst collection of players in the league competing with Florida. Colorado has a nice looking roster on paper I think they are letting Sacco tank the team because they want Seth more than anything.

Next year though they could be looking on the right track adding Sven, top 3 pick, Reinhart, healthy Bouma, possibly Breen. This will go along with Brodie, Backlund and hopefully 1-2 players that are "not post apex". I am excited for this summer more than any in recent years.

[toquester]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames system is to score more goals than they let in. The forwards are not supposed to prevent goals.

Here is the Flames scoring stats extrapolated over an 82 game schedule:

player , , Pts82 , , Goals82
Mike Cammalleri, LW , , 63 , , 27
Jarome Iginla, RW† , , 58 , , 24
Alex Tanguay, LW , , 58 , , 22
Curtis Glencross, LW , , 55 , , 34
Lee Stempniak, RW , , 55 , , 16
Jiri Hudler, LW , , 53 , , 17
Matt Stajan, C , , 51 , , 11
Dennis Wideman, D , , 44 , , 11
Mikael Backlund, C , , 41 , , 22
Jay Bouwmeester, D#† , , 37 , , 15
Roman Cervenka, C , , 33 , , 14




1 30 goal scorer , 5 20+ goal scorers, 7 players over 50 pts

Hudler is having a near career year 53 pts is better than last years 50 and close to his 57 he had in 08-09

Stempniak's 55 points is a career year.... He got 52 in 06-07 and 48 in 09-10

Wideman had 50 pts in 08-09 with Boston and 46 last year His 44 is a great year for him

Stajan's 51 points is with striking distance of his career year of 57 that earned him his long term contract.

Try to point out the player that you expected to do better....... The only guy I see having an off year stats wise is Iginla.

I think that this team would totally dominate the Swiss league that Hartley is coaching this team to be.

My biggest question is why the biggest best checking centre in the system , Blair Jones, the only person in that type in the organization, is playing in the AHL? He got 11 games at 8:51 / game in the NHL before he was banished.

When did Hartley and Feaster start the drive for a lottery pick.

I think that we have enough skilled scorers to be a playoff team. The question is how hard will it be to find 4-5 Blair Jone's type's to win some hockey games.

I agree that Hartley and Feaster are looking for that lottery pick. I don't think they have any interest in winning, and who can blame them. Iginla has been the face of the franchise and since they found a way to change the franchise, they have jumped on it. Now, they finish last, draft high and start all over again next year and everyone blames it on the loss of Iginla. Let's face it, in Calgary, it has been some time since Iggy has been a franchise player.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by toquester

Let me just say this:

If this team is as terrible as it has been suggested, then they may as well dump the majority of players, and then you would be looking at a long, long time before you are half decent.

Just imagine a team like the Washington Capitals and the decades, not years, of poor performance before they became decent. Start from scratch and that is the type of task you are facing.

This team is terrible, and has gigantic holes in every area of the lineup that matters. We need to draft our key players in the next 2-3 years as there is no other way to really get them.

There was more than one poster who predicted this outcome about 3 years ago, which is why it is so frustrating. It was painfully obvious what path this team was going down and they have followed the script virtually to the letter. Given that we are currently in a 4 year playoff drought, I can easily see it being 7-8 years out - and that's assuming that management doesn't try to shortcut things.

Teams that are bad for decades are that way because of terrible management, not because they tried to rebuild. In that vein, I too am worried that this might take a while.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by toquester

They not only had success on other teams, but they have had success on this team, this year. It was the team that had no success.

The Flames have the worst GAA in the league. You can't blame that on the forwards. Let me qualify that. You can blame that on the forwards and the system, but no matter how well you play defensively, if every time the team makes a mistake, the puck is in the net, you give up. That is the way things have been this year.

And when do goalies start taking some heat for this mess?

Because even when the goalies stand on their head, the team still loses.

Say it with me... this is a bad hockey team.