[CP Story] Decision Time in Calgary

[MyFlamesFirst]

I said this in a post a while ago. I think it that the owners are afraid if they trade Iginla and start a rebuild the average flames fan won't support the flames anymore. Which to be honest is a valid point. The average fan is not as educated on the flames situation as us cpers and probably still assume Iginla is a top notch scorer and that the flames coaching or some other reason has prevented the flames from the playoffs. Its unfortunate but Calgary is oil city and the flames are still able to sell overpriced tickets to many fans who are being fooled by the management team saying they are going to make the playoffs.

[calgarywinning]

I think it is a combination of B and D. Going for the hybrid root of the problem being more than one thing.

[kyuss275]

For me a combination of A,B and D. Could also go with all of the above.

[photon]

I chose fear of losing season ticket base, but I agree it can be a combination of many factors, but ultimately I think it's a business level decision rather than a hockey decision.

The only question I have is can they trust the fans?

When the team was going through its rough patch in the 90's and the team's viability in Calgary was at least discussed as being at risk, wasn't attendance and support evaporating?

Wouldn't that suggest to the owners that they can't trust the fan base?

I don't know because I don't recall enough from the 90's to know if the situation is comparable to trusting the fans now to be supportive through a rebuild.

[photon]

I chose fear of losing season ticket base, but I agree it can be a combination of many factors, but ultimately I think it's a business level decision rather than a hockey decision.

The only question I have is can they trust the fans?

When the team was going through its rough patch in the 90's and the team's viability in Calgary was at least discussed as being at risk, wasn't attendance and support evaporating?

Wouldn't that suggest to the owners that they can't trust the fan base?

I don't know because I don't recall enough from the 90's to know if the situation is comparable to trusting the fans now to be supportive through a rebuild.

[FlamesPuck12]

I don't think blowing everything up and tanking for couple of seasons is the best way to rebuild a team from hockey and business perspective. You have to compete for the playoffs every year and rebuild while you can still be competitive.

[zamler]

I voted "Fear of losing season ticket base" and I hope that is indeed the case. If management actually believes the team is better than it is, you can bet they will once again try to mortgage the future and buy those magical pieces that will put the team on a miracle run.

This team has all the hallmarks of being run like a business first, business second, business third, on ice product an after thought.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I voted Loyalty to Iginla, but it likely also falls under 'Thinks the Team is Better Than It is' because I think Flames ownership believes Iginla is better than he is.

I voted "Thinks the Team is Better than It Is" because I think that pretty much covers it all.

Yes, they think too much of what Iggy can do. They hope for playoff revenue, even when it's not propable/realistic. They fear losing in the ticket sales because of a poor product, not really being in terms with the fact that the product is already rock bottom.

All those things come down to the same thing; thinking too much of the team.

As to one decision maker, I don't really believe that, at least not before the ROR debacle. After that I think anything is possible.

I do think the way Weisbrod has completely disappeared from the picture is interesting. He seemed a very prominent figure last season. Could it be that he wants to disassociate himself from this season altogether? Propably a smart career move...

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by photon

I chose fear of losing season ticket base, but I agree it can be a combination of many factors, but ultimately I think it's a business level decision rather than a hockey decision.

The only question I have is can they trust the fans?

When the team was going through its rough patch in the 90's and the team's viability in Calgary was at least discussed as being at risk, wasn't attendance and support evaporating?

Wouldn't that suggest to the owners that they can't trust the fan base?

I don't know because I don't recall enough from the 90's to know if the situation is comparable to trusting the fans now to be supportive through a rebuild.

The way I look at it is that the difference in the 90s was that they were not only bad but had no hope. If we could build a good team through the draft we couldn't afford to keep it.

Now I think they have exactly the opposite problem. They have too much money to spend and try to build the team by buying it. It didn't work that well in Toronto or in NY and they didn't have to deal with the cap.

[HartAttack]

I'm not sure what people expect when they say they want the Flames to rebuild?

Were we not rebuilding when we traded Regehr? Or let guys like Boyd, Moss, Jokinen etc. go to sign somewhere else?

Are we not rebuilding by benching Sarich and having Brodie in the lineup to learn as he goes?

Why does a rebuild mean we have to trade Iggy and/or Kipper? It's probably because you think that those 2 guys will fetch the most value. I feel like we tend to overvalue our own players and the market value they have.

Remember when Jones & Karlsson & Irving went on waivers, and everyone on this site was saying they would all be claimed???

My point is that a full out rebuild rarely works, and just because we're impatient fans doesn't mean you have to blow it all up. And laughably, as the article reads, we CPers are not any smarter than an average fan and should not be trusted with the GM decisions you all claim to have the answers for. The members of this site make statements and opinions based on emotion, and emotion doesn't run successful hockey clubs (read: Phaneuf trade).

[Kaine]

Originally Posted by mac_82

F) all of the above

This. I picked one but honestly it's very likely a combination of several factors.

Too many hands in the cookie jar? Reasonable given the various stores over the last several years.
Loyalty to Iggy? Well duh.
Afraid of losing revenue or STH's? Umm what owner wouldn't want more profit.
They think the team is better than it is? Well how many years have we been buyers at the deadline despite it being painfully obvious to nearly everyone that we are not a playoff team...

I would say one could pick pretty much any option in the poll and not be wrong.

[Dr. Doom]

Originally Posted by HartAttack

I'm not sure what people expect when they say they want the Flames to rebuild?

Were we not rebuilding when we traded Regehr? Or let guys like Boyd, Moss, Jokinen etc. go to sign somewhere else?

Are we not rebuilding by benching Sarich and having Brodie in the lineup to learn as he goes?

Why does a rebuild mean we have to trade Iggy and/or Kipper? It's probably because you think that those 2 guys will fetch the most value. I feel like we tend to overvalue our own players and the market value they have.

Remember when Jones & Karlsson & Irving went on waivers, and everyone on this site was saying they would all be claimed???

My point is that a full out rebuild rarely works, and just because we're impatient fans doesn't mean you have to blow it all up. And laughably, as the article reads, we CPers are not any smarter than an average fan and should not be trusted with the GM decisions you all claim to have the answers for. The members of this site make statements and opinions based on emotion, and emotion doesn't run successful hockey clubs (read: Phaneuf trade).

I'm not sure what bubble you live in. But I don't think we overvalue our players.

Since the CAP, there's a lot of parody. Since the parody there's not many sellers at the deadline. Teams going for it will be the ones "over-valuing" guys like Iginla and Kipper, NOT US.

Give your head a shake. Add in a deep draft like this one, and there could be no better time to "rebuild" or deal the two players you mentioned. Consider JBo and Cammo as well why the hell not?

We're almost last place, we should be clear cut sellers. And there aren't a lot of those with the the types of pieces we have.

[Super-Rye]

Originally Posted by photon

I chose fear of losing season ticket base, but I agree it can be a combination of many factors, but ultimately I think it's a business level decision rather than a hockey decision.

The only question I have is can they trust the fans?

When the team was going through its rough patch in the 90's and the team's viability in Calgary was at least discussed as being at risk, wasn't attendance and support evaporating?

Wouldn't that suggest to the owners that they can't trust the fan base?

I don't know because I don't recall enough from the 90's to know if the situation is comparable to trusting the fans now to be supportive through a rebuild.

The Flames ownership can trust the most die-hard of the fan base. We have been through worse and will be around till the bitter end. I remember attendance being around 15,000 - 16,000 during the bad times. Whether or not that was the actual attendance I don't know, but those are not bad numbers for a team that was an absolute joke from the mid 90's to the early 2000's. Plus almost everything about the game has changed now. Calgary is a big market team and the game itself is focused around skill.

Ownership should be weary of isolating their fan base. If they start losing fans left right and center it won't be because Iginla and others are gone, it'll be because the team has once again returned to the joke they were from the mid 90's to early 2000's.

With that said, and I won't speak for anyone else, while I still follow this team and watch every game that I can, I find it incredibly hard to spend any sort of money on them these days. New third jersey next year? That's nice. Tickets to a game? I'll pass. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't care. It is in fact quite the opposite. I care enough that I want to see a new direction, and they won't get a single penny from me until i see that. If I keep giving and giving then they are more likely to just sit around collecting dollars and putting a mediocre team together.

They might make changes and fail miserably but that's kind of the beauty of it all. You won't make it to the top without risking what you have. Ownership, as successful business men, should have a better understanding of that than any of us.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Good article, but I don't agree with the premise that a rebuild is only real if Iginla gets traded or the poll question.

I think the flames started rebuilding 18 months ago. I don't think they have 'refused' anything.

Last season the trade iginla contemplation started in earnest, for both sides, which was the right time. It is only natural that heading into his UFA year it would become a genuine topic and a real possibility. But it was and remains his call. The flames are certainly not clamouring for him to stay with public statements of support like last year.

It is decision time on Iginla. I think the team has made their call. He will make his.

[FlamesAddiction]

The problem wasn't a lack of fans in the 1990s. It was a lack of fans willing to spend money on an inferior product. I think everyone knew that Calgary had a huge sleeper fanbase that was just waiting to come back out. You can have all the fans in the world, but if they are conservative with their money, it won't matter.

Over the past 3 seasons as people starting wanting a rebuild, there have been a few season ticket holders on here saying that they would not suffer through a rebuild again and that people wanting a rebuild should be investing in the team on the same financial level.

I think Edwards, King and whoever the GM is, get their guidance from the voice of the season ticket holder base and until they start demanding a rebuild, I don't know that it will happen. If you are a season ticket holder, the next time they ask for input, make sure you tell them what you expect. A lot of the old folks (like people in their 60s and older), probably see their time and money as more valuable.

Die hard fans are not all season ticket holders, nor are all season ticket holders die hard fans.

[Dr. Doom]

Originally Posted by Super-Rye

The Flames ownership can trust the most die-hard of the fan base. We have been through worse and will be around till the bitter end. I remember attendance being around 15,000 - 16,000 during the bad times. Whether or not that was the actual attendance I don't know, but those are not bad numbers for a team that was an absolute joke from the mid 90's to the early 2000's. Plus almost everything about the game has changed now. Calgary is a big market team and the game itself is focused around skill.

Ownership should be weary of isolating their fan base. If they start losing fans left right and center it won't be because Iginla and others are gone, it'll be because they team has once again returned to the joke they were from the mid 90's to early 2000's.

With that said, and I won't speak for anyone else, while I still follow this team and watch every game that I can, I find it incredibly hard to spend any sort of money on them these days. New third jersey next year? That's nice. Tickets to a game? I'll pass. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't care. It is in fact quite the opposite. I care enough that I want to see a new direction, and they won't get a single penny from me until i see that. If I keep giving and giving then they are more likely to just sit around collecting dollars and putting a mediocre team together.

They might make changes and fail miserably but that's kind of the beauty of it all. You won't make it to the top without risking what you have. Ownership, as successful business men, should have a better understanding of that than any of us.

That's a really good post. Wish management could read that.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by photon

I chose fear of losing season ticket base, but I agree it can be a combination of many factors, but ultimately I think it's a business level decision rather than a hockey decision.

The only question I have is can they trust the fans?

When the team was going through its rough patch in the 90's and the team's viability in Calgary was at least discussed as being at risk, wasn't attendance and support evaporating?

Wouldn't that suggest to the owners that they can't trust the fan base?

I don't know because I don't recall enough from the 90's to know if the situation is comparable to trusting the fans now to be supportive through a rebuild.

Great post and I think the owners can't trust the fan base and they've got a point in not trusting them.

Check out the Buy/sell forum on kijiji or even on CP. People can not get full value for their tickets. It's just not possible especially for a Nashville game or a Minnesota game or a similar team.

This will start to effect the Flames sooner rather than later. Attending a Flames game is not really a sought after product when we are losing. I've had buddies who have had problems giving away their tickets. A lot of people would much rather just sit and watch the game at home since they're all televised.

We hound on American fans but I can honestly say that when I attended the Honda center and Staples center a few weeks back that their fans crushed Flame fans in every single category. They were louder, much more involved in the game, and even all cheered when they showed that Chicago had lose their first game. The whole building erupted in cheer. I think most at the dome would be too busy checking their iphones and blackberries to even notice or care.

The only thing keeping the saddledome sold out is the businesses eating up season tickets or you'd have a dome with 16-17,000 people in it. If the Flames keep losing, these businesses will look else where to entertain their clients since nobody will even want to attend a game.

It's a slow process but when we were making the playoffs I was buying tickets for above face value, and that's when I could find them.

Now, for about half the face value you can attend pretty much any game that doesn't involve another Canadian team. So why would anyone buy season tickets when you can buy pretty much any game for less than season ticket price.

[Trojan97]

I honestly believe the city would totally accept Iginla being traded. Whenever I hear casual fans talking about the team now it's "do you think they're going to trade Iginla? isn't he really old now?", if the Flames trade him and then start pumping out the sentimental press releases/videos they will be fine in terms of the acceptance of the average fan. Calgary is a market full of front runners, they will pay big money to see a winner regardless of who is on the team.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by HartAttack

I'm not sure what people expect when they say they want the Flames to rebuild?

Were we not rebuilding when we traded Regehr? Or let guys like Boyd, Moss, Jokinen etc. go to sign somewhere else?

If we are rebuilding now, then we have been rebuilding for a decade, because we are once again in the exact same situation as so many times before; We have one of the oldest teams in the league, we are missing our 2nd round pick, and the management is saying that it's not going to be sellers at the trade deadline.

A rebuilding team would be young(ish) and propably have lots of draft picks.

[LChoy]

3 things to add:
- As related to the too many cooks sentiment, it's not as easy to trade players when most of the key trade targets (Iggy, Kipper (until recently), and Bouw) all had NTC/NMC. This isn't to say management couldn't ask them to waive it (and who knows, maybe they tried), but the point I would make is that these players are in the driver seat in terms of who the GM can trade with
- I think we have been slowly rebuilding as we have gradually playing a younger line up. Only exception currently is Begin and McGratton, but we don't have any young guys that can do the type of job as well as they do right now. Even then, neither of those 2 are regulars and are joined by Sarich and Babchuck.
- The Oiler rebuild isn't a planned strategy. They just happen to finish last over the last couple of years and picked first. No team actually has blown it up by trading all their old players and play all of their young guys, at least not successfully. The most successful rebuilding of teams rather trade their high price assets if they have a backup for it. People lament on how we should have traded Iggy, Bouw, Kipper seasons ago, but without suitable replacements, it would be moving spots in the line up or worse, creating new deficiencies. Therefore, imo, it was really the Flames lack of dept before that made it more difficult to trade an Iginla, Kipper, or Bouw

I think the most important thing to happen this year to the Flames is Kipper getting hurt. I think previously fans and management didn't think this team could win any games without Kipper in the line up. However, during Kipper's absence, the Flames weren't awesome, but certainly didn't lose every game, and allowed Management a glimpse of a future without Kipper. In my opinion, I think the reaction by them is that it wasn't as bad as they thought it would be, and thus trading Kipper isn't as unthinkable as it once was.

Lchoy