Did The Flames Really Get Younger?

[DeluxeMoustache]

The idea behind the thread or question is that younger is better but most impact players on this team are not at that twilight stage.

The team could and should be looking to get younger impact players and the nice thing is that the team does not have those types of guys like Amonte, Nolan, Friesen, etc. that Darryl used to patch together his top 6

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

Ugh. I'm liking Wideman's offensive game, but I can't help but think that contract is going to bite Feaster in the ass.

I sure hope he doesn't become Babchuck bad at the end of that contract

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The idea behind the thread or question is that younger is better but most impact players on this team are not at that twilight stage.

The team could and should be looking to get younger impact players and the nice thing is that the team does not have those types of guys like Amonte, Nolan, Friesen, etc. that Darryl used to patch together his top 6

None of those guys were really our impact players. Our impact players were usually Tanguay (still here, and older... obviously), Glencross (same), Bourque (trade for Cammalleri, same age), Huselius (same age then as Hudler now?) and Comeau.

Also... I don't remember Friesen being "old" when we got him.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I shouldn't have said any more. Looking back, I think Enoch Root pretty much answered the OP's question.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

At the start of the season, it was looking like:

Baertschi 20
Jones 26
Irving 24
Bouma 22, and possibly
Horak 21

would be on the team. And that team was middle of the pack for age. Then they essentially replaced those guys with:

Begin 34
McGratton 31 and
MacDonald 33 and kept both of
Sarich 34 and
Babchuk 28

As has been pointed out, the increase has all been 4th liners and backup goalie.

If you look at the roster from 2 years ago, they have replaced all of these 30+ guys:

Jokinen
Morrison
Hagman
Kostopoulos
Regehr
Staios
Kotalik
Conroy
Meyer
Langkow
Ivanans

And they have brought in guys that are mostly in the 26-30 range:
Wideman
Hudler
Jones
Comeau
Stempniak
Butler
Cervenka
Cammalleri (replacing Bourque, so a wash)

as well as the guys listed above

I think the team, as in the key players, is getting younger. But until Baertschi, Bouma, Horak and guys like that take the roster spots of some of the older guys, the stats aren't going to reflect it.

Since DM referenced this, I will debate this. You started off saying if Sven/Bouma/Horak could take rolls, the age would be lower; wasn't the same thing said 2 years ago for the bolded names?

Also not sure which time frame you're taking... Ivanans was basically not on the roster with his injury and a forgotten thought. I think Olli was early 30's, Meyer I barely even remember him being on this team and I don't think he was on the roster when TKO was here. So I'm not sure which random sample you took?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Since DM referenced this, I will debate this. You started off saying if Sven/Bouma/Horak could take rolls, the age would be lower; wasn't the same thing said 2 years ago for the bolded names?

Also not sure which time frame you're taking... Ivanans was basically not on the roster with his injury and a forgotten thought. I think Olli was early 30's, Meyer I barely even remember him being on this team and I don't think he was on the roster when TKO was here. So I'm not sure which random sample you took?

It is easy to get confused with timing, overlapping things, etc. So what I did was take one source: nhl.com 2010/2011 team listings. All of the names I listed are on that same list. If TKo and Meyer were not on the team at the same time (I can't remember) so be it. What I said was 'players from two years ago' and all these players were on the 10/11 roster. Modin was as well. That is a lot of 30+ers!

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It is easy to get confused with timing, overlapping things, etc. So what I did was take one source: nhl.com 2010/2011 team listings. All of the names I listed are on that same list. If TKo and Meyer were not on the team at the same time (I can't remember) so be it. What I said was 'players from two years ago' and all these players were on the 10/11 roster. Modin was as well. That is a lot of 30+ers!

I see... I think its not really fair to compare it that way due to some odd inclusions (i.e. Ivanans, never here; or overlap players). I bet if you take the sample of 2012, it won't improve at all; at the end of 2013, you take a sample and it also won't improve because you are including 30+ year old players over 2 seasons. The metric is just too inconsistent.

To be fair, take the starting roster of 2011 and measure against 2013 and I think comparisons will be fair. There are still a lot of older players on this team, though I am glad we have Brodie and (had) Horak and Sven on this roster.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I see... I think its not really fair to compare it that way due to some odd inclusions (i.e. Ivanans, never here; or overlap players). I bet if you take the sample of 2012, it won't improve at all; at the end of 2013, you take a sample and it also won't improve because you are including 30+ year old players over 2 seasons. The metric is just too inconsistent.

Not following you at all. These things are dynamic. Bottom line - all those players played in that season. Moving them out and bringing in other players is what we are talking about here. IT's just a discussion and I am as comfortable with how I did it as any other way I could think of

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

To be fair, take the starting roster of 2011 and measure against 2013 and I think comparisons will be fair. There are still a lot of older players on this team, though I am glad we have Brodie and (had) Horak and Sven on this roster.

Part of that I covered in the other post and you questioned it. Baertschi was on the opening roster and McGrattan wasn't and, with the opening roster, the Flames were no where near the oldest team.

There are a lot of variables - you'll drive yourself nuts if you try to put too fine a point on it

But yeah - go ahead

[DeluxeMoustache]

Isn't he saying simply
- top 9/top 4 players are generally younger
- some young role players who were only used for limited ice time were supplanted by veterans
- earlier this year, they were middle of the pack and now average older
- the 5 guys he mentioned in the other post are not impact players and raise the average age by over 2 years

So to the question as to whether Feaster has made the team younger, for practical purposes is yes. The implication of being the oldest team is that you are slow, can't keep up, etc. And this 'oldest team in the league' thing merits a closer look

I think dividing it to look at key players and limited service 4th line and scratch players is a good way to think about and respond to the question and its implications

A team with a top line of 25 year olds and a 4th line of 35 year olds could I suppose be called the same age as a team with a top line of 40 year olds and a 4th line of 20 year olds. If you really wanted to look at it that way.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Not following you at all. These things are dynamic. Bottom line - all those players played in that season. Moving them out and bringing in other players is what we are talking about here. IT's just a discussion and I am as comfortable with how I did it as any other way I could think of

Ok. And I am comfortable saying I think its inconsistant and does not give a accurate representation. If a 34 year old was swapped out for a 31 year old a few years ago, it would be getting younger, but according to your argument, there are 2 old players on the team when in fact the team was in fact getting younger. TKO in for Meyers is an example.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Isn't he saying simply
- top 9/top 4 players are generally younger
- some young role players who were only used for limited ice time were supplanted by veterans
- earlier this year, they were middle of the pack and now average older
- the 5 guys he mentioned in the other post are not impact players and raise the average age by over 2 years

So to the question as to whether Feaster has made the team younger, for practical purposes is yes. The implication of being the oldest team is that you are slow, can't keep up, etc. And this 'oldest team in the league' thing merits a closer look

I think dividing it to look at key players and limited service 4th line and scratch players is a good way to think about and respond to the question and its implications

A team with a top line of 25 year olds and a 4th line of 35 year olds could I suppose be called the same age as a team with a top line of 40 year olds and a 4th line of 20 year olds. If you really wanted to look at it that way.

Sure, I can live with that.

So why is he adding Ivanans, TKO, Kotalik and Morrison to the list?

[Weiser Wonder]

The forwards need to get younger. I think reflexes start to get worse once players hit their mid to late 20s. So you need younger guys to give you quickness in your forward group. I think this and the lack of quality centers are the two glaring needs the Flames have.

I think defensively the Flames age is fine. A younger guy and a bunch of guys in their prime.

Kiprusoff's age isn't that much of a problem considering the Flames have a bunch of goaltending prospects.

[Phanuthier]

Lets compare top 6 fwd for age:

Iginla -35
Tanguay - 33
Glencross - 30
Hudler -29
Cammalleri - 30
Stempniak -30
possible swap Backlund as 7th -23
possible swap Stajan as 7th - 30

Lets take a top 6 forward for the 2011 starting lineup:

Iginla -33
Tanguay - 31
Glencross - 28
Bourque - 30
Stajan - 28
Stempniak -28

Obviously 4/6 players are the same, and 2 years younger... so its a swap out of Cammalleri (30) for Bourque (30), and Hudler (29) for Stajan (28). At a glance, we are actually older.

Arguable case for Backlund as the young guy

Forwards... the obvious "get younger" move is Brodie in the top 4, Regehr out. Past that? Gio and Bouw are the same (2 years older), and Wideman (29?) in for (Ian White?) which is a swap.

Again..... very similar.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Lets compare top 6 fwd for age:

Iginla -35
Tanguay - 33
Glencross - 30
Hudler -29
Cammalleri - 30
Stempniak -30
possible swap Backlund as 7th -23
possible swap Stajan as 7th - 30

Lets take a top 6 forward for the 2011 starting lineup:

Iginla -33
Tanguay - 31
Glencross - 28
Bourque - 30
Stajan - 28
Stempniak -28

Obviously 4/6 players are the same, and 2 years younger... so its a swap out of Cammalleri (30) for Bourque (30), and Hudler (29) for Stajan (28). At a glance, we are actually older.

Arguable case for Backlund as the young guy

Forwards... the obvious "get younger" move is Brodie in the top 4, Regehr out. Past that? Gio and Bouw are the same (2 years older), and Wideman (29?) in for (Ian White?) which is a swap.

Again..... very similar.

This is flawed too..

I don't think anyone had Stempniak as a top 6 to start the season (arguably Glencross either)

Very subjective, and I could change out a couple players and make the numbers look very different

Edit: weren't Morrison and Jokinen the top 2 Cs to start the year in 2011?

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This is flawed too..

I don't think anyone had Stempniak as a top 6 to start the season (arguably Glencross either)

Very subjective, and I could change out a couple players and make the numbers look very different

We can expand to top 9, but I honestly don't remember who our 3rd line was 2 years ago nor does it improve the overall numbers.

2 years ago, I think you add David Moss (29), Mikael Backlund (22) OR Roman Horak (20), and Olli Jokinen (32)...... on this years add Backlund (24), Stajan (30) and Blake Comeau (26) and again..... we didn't get younger. Its pretty similar.

EDIT: to put in Olli

[Enoch Root]

Backlund, Baertschi and Cervenka were all top 9 to start the season

For 2011, you need to add Morrison, Jokinen and Moss

[Enoch Root]

we could do this all day - that's why I simply took a list off nhl.com and accepted it as is

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This is flawed too..

I don't think anyone had Stempniak as a top 6 to start the season (arguably Glencross either)

Very subjective, and I could change out a couple players and make the numbers look very different

Edit: weren't Morrison and Jokinen the top 2 Cs to start the year in 2011?

Sure, go ahead. I'd like to see it.

Editted for Jokinen. I think Morrison stopped playing top 12 by this time and was injured, then back as 14th forward in December before finally traded.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Backlund, Baertschi and Cervenka were all top 9 to start the season

For 2011, you need to add Morrison, Jokinen and Moss

Did Cervenka start the season?

I added in Moss. Morrison, as I said, was injured/4th line by the start of the 2011-12 season. I think you are referring to the previous year that he actually played top 3 line minutes.