Obviously domestic abuse in general is a major issue for both genders however to suggest that it is equal, including the physical ramifications of the abuse would be incorrect.
Well then we need to make sure that nobody has or will say that then.
I have some numbers too:
A 1999 U.S. Department of Justice study concluded that between 1976 and 1997 in the United States, mothers were responsible for a higher share of children killed during infancy, while fathers were more likely to have been responsible for the murders of children age 8 or older. Furthermore, 52% of the children killed by their mothers (maternal filicide) were male, while 57% of the children killed by their fathers (paternal filicide) were male. Parents were responsible for 61% of child murders under the age of five; filicide is the third leading cause of death amongst American children five to fourteen years old
My brother is on the receiving end of spousal abuse when my sister-in-law goes ape####. We called the cops on her when she went ape#### a few months ago - at that point, she hadn't descended on him with physical violence, probably because we were there - she was just out of her mind insane and escalating, so we called the police. She threatened me and I told her to go ahead, because I'd make sure her ass spent as much time in jail as possible. I wish he'd tell her to get out and never come back but I don't see that happening any time soon, unfortunately.
A 1999 U.S. Department of Justice study concluded that between 1976 and 1997 in the United States, mothers were responsible for a higher share of children killed during infancy, while fathers were more likely to have been responsible for the murders of children age 8 or older. Furthermore, 52% of the children killed by their mothers (maternal filicide) were male, while 57% of the children killed by their fathers (paternal filicide) were male. Parents were responsible for 61% of child murders under the age of five; filicide is the third leading cause of death amongst American children five to fourteen years old
Okay? I am unsure of what point you are trying to convey with that?
Okay? I am unsure of what point you are trying to convey with that?
MMM "Obviously domestic abuse in general is a major issue for both genders however to suggest that it is equal, including the physical ramifications of the abuse would be incorrect."
I think he means that a man can more seriously injure a woman, and more easily, then a woman can to a man. Just due to the physical and strength differences. (Or maybe not. But that's how I read it).
But if how badly somebody gets physically hurt is the true measuring stick of domestic violence then I think there is a lack of understanding of the issue.
I guarantee you that having your parent breaking your face open when you are 5 and having the other parent lie to the doctors how it happened is worse than any physical damage (to a point) that your parents can inflict on a child.
Trust me the bones and bruises are the easiest thing to heal.
You do realize that half of the statistics that you posted have nothing to do with anything (gender of children) - and that Post Partum Depression (PPD) is a major reason for the higher rates amongst women, particularly in infancy.
Women are just as capable of men as committing acts of violence, however they do so on decreased regularity with decreased severity.
Also young males are the group which is most commonly is responsible for shaken baby syndrome
Here is a poster of George Laraque holding a baby to draw attention to the issue.
I dont understand are you saying the PPD is an excuse and so they really dont count in the total? So if a women is of not right mind it is considered an outliar and not statistcaly normal? The media does it as they excuse it as mental illness. Between you and me i would say the male who finds it acceptable probably has a screw loose too.
Did anybody else notice that it was male children that get the majority of the violence acted on them? I have yet to hear anybody come out with a statement about a need for more focus on saving boys. I have also never seen an ad made with a female celebrity talking to women about abuse of children and telling women to stop it. Considering the numbers ask yourself why is that?
You do realize your stats are only about one form of violence on a child. So are we only taking shaking baby syndrome now?
Why dont you just admit that your initial statement is incorrect?
I think the murder rates of children just in our city and see who is commiting them is plenty of evidence.
I dont understand are you saying the PPD is an excuse and so they really dont count in the total? So if a women is of not right mind it is considered an outliar and not statistcaly normal? The media does it as they excuse it as mental illness. Between you and me i would say the male who finds it acceptable probably has a screw loose too.
Did anybody else notice that it was male children that get the majority of the violence acted on them? I have yet to hear anybody come out with a statement about a need for more focus on saving boys. I have also never seen an ad made with a female celebrity talking to women about abuse of children and telling women to stop it. Considering the numbers ask yourself why is that?
You do realize your stats are only about one form of violence on a child. So are we only taking shaking baby syndrome now?
Why dont you just admit that your initial statement is incorrect?
I think the murder rates of children just in our city and see who is commiting them is plenty of evidence.
Are you saying that stuff like what happened in this photo essay is actually the same thing as a woman suffering from PPD? As in, this guy beat his wife because of a medical condition that he has?
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SeeBass, I understand that maybe this is a personal issue for you, but it seems that every time some story spawns a thread about domestic abuse where the woman is the victim, you try to change the focus of the discussion into how men are also victims of such violence. Yes, it is somewhat annoying that men's issues are underplayed, not just in being victims of violence, but in such areas as economic disadvantage (ever notice how 90% of the homeless are men?), father's rights, and health care focus, but that doesn't mean cases like this aren't still horrific and worthy of discussion in their own right.
I think it's better to consider things more in the light that everyone has the right to security of the person, happiness, and personal dignity, then work from there, rather than making everything a contest as to which sex is oppressing the other.
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I dont understand are you saying the PPD is an excuse and so they really dont count in the total? So if a women is of not right mind it is considered an outliar and not statistcaly normal? The media does it as they excuse it as mental illness. Between you and me i would say the male who finds it acceptable probably has a screw loose too.
It isn't about finding it acceptable or not acceptable, it is about trying to identify a cause for the abuse, if it is continual or if it is the result of a person who is exhausted from having a child that won't stop crying, no sleep, potentially colicky... which is completely different than someone who gets out of prison, yells at a child and asks the wife where she would like to be beaten... sorry, I mean if she would have a polite conversation in the basement.
Men can also suffer from PPD as well, but with reduced regularity.
Quote:
Did anybody else notice that it was male children that get the majority of the violence acted on them? I have yet to hear anybody come out with a statement about a need for more focus on saving boys. I have also never seen an ad made with a female celebrity talking to women about abuse of children and telling women to stop it. Considering the numbers ask yourself why is that?
52 and 56% while being the majority are not very convincing majorities to draw conclusions about.
As for an advertisement why direct it at any gender?
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You do realize your stats are only about one form of violence on a child. So are we only taking shaking baby syndrome now?
Why dont you just admit that your initial statement is incorrect?
You mean the statement that is backed up by statistical facts on the issue? Men are more often the abuser in a relationship than women and it thus stands to reason that this abuse would take increased focus when discussing the issue of domestic abuse.
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I think the murder rates of children just in our city and see who is commiting them is plenty of evidence.
No it isn't. I don't even think that it is the same issue that is being discussed, there is a difference between domestic abuse, child abuse and infanticide... you would have to be wilfully obtuse not to realize that.
SeeBass, I understand that maybe this is a personal issue for you, but it seems that every time some story spawns a thread about domestic abuse where the woman is the victim, you try to change the focus of the discussion into how men are also victims of such violence. Yes, it is somewhat annoying that men's issues are underplayed, not just in being victims of violence, but in such areas as economic disadvantage (ever notice how 90% of the homeless are men?), father's rights, and health care focus, but that doesn't mean cases like this aren't still horrific and worthy of discussion in their own right.
I think it's better to consider things more in the light that everyone has the right to security of the person, happiness, and personal dignity, then work from there, rather than making everything a contest as to which sex is oppressing the other.
Excellent post.
However, without people like Seebass pointing out what should be the obvious, which is that Domestic Violence (DV) is at parity and it should be represented as such. We would continue to believe, for example, that 1 out of 5 men commit DV on his partner. This is a poster on the bathroom stalls in bars and pubs... It says nothing about how they came to such a ridiculous number, or does it say how many women commit DV on their partner. What Seebass is doing is simply defending you and me and every other GENTLE man. Can you imagine that 1 out of 5 posters here are an abuser?!
When I was younger I was part of the feminist movement. I pushed the rhetoric that was going around. I was, what I feel now, suckered into believing women need help. However, women as a whole are not victims. Last year, doing some video work I stumbled upon a man who was treated horribly by his ex. I found many more men who suffered from DV as it wasn't hard to find once you look. Nobody is out there helping these people. Just like women, men are not victims as a whole. There are individual people who are abused and each one needs our assistance and understanding. However, the concentration of funding and caring is on women alone. This story by the OP further implies DV is a Male problem and it isn't. Just as the examples Seebass and Cowperson posted previously defend that point. If the artist did a Domestic Violence shoot on both sexes then this would be a non-issue.
The feminist movement creates victims out of women.
The Men's Rights Movement wants the same treatment that women receive for men... What man wants to be a victim?
IMO they are both ridiculous, but someone has to help the people who are not getting any help and right now, unfortunately, it's the Men's Rights Movement. I tried working with them but while I support that there should be help for men, I don't approve of calling anyone a victim. I also believe that there should be equal assistance for all. Can we think of a more empowering word for these men and women.
Anyway, I went all over the place in this post... I hope it made sense.
Last edited by To Be Quite Honest; 03-01-2013 at 03:34 PM.
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However, without people like Seebass pointing out what should be the obvious, which is that Domestic Violence (DV) is at parity and it should be represented as such. We would continue to believe, for example, that 1 out of 5 men commit DV on his partner. This is a poster on the bathroom stalls in bars and pubs... It says nothing about how they came to such a ridiculous number, or does it say how many women commit DV on their partner. What Seebass is doing is simply defending you and me and every other GENTLE man. Can you imagine that 1 out of 5 posters here are an abuser?!
How is that a ridiculous number? In a survey done in the United States in 2010 it was found that 24.3% of women and 13.8% of men were victims of domestic abuse at some point during their lives. I don't know the exact statistics for how many men have abused women but I fail to see the connection between someone posting on a hockey message board and them being impervious to having been a victim or a perpetrator of domestic abuse.
Quote:
When I was younger I was part of the feminist movement. I pushed the rhetoric that was going around. I was, what I feel now, suckered into believing women need help. However, women as a whole are not victims. Last year, doing some video work I stumbled upon a man who was treated horribly by his ex. I found many more men who suffered from DV as it wasn't hard to find once you look. Nobody is out there helping these people. Just like women, men are not victims as a whole. There are individual people who are abused and each one needs our assistance and understanding. However, the concentration of funding and caring is on women alone. This story by the OP further implies DV is a Male problem and it isn't. Just as the examples Seebass and Cowperson posted previously defend that point. If the artist did a Domestic Violence shoot on both sexes then this would be a non-issue.
While domestic abuse against men does happen it happens with decreased regularity. You are right it isn't a male problem per say but it is a problem that is associated with a higher proportion of men and should be addressed.
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The feminist movement creates victims out of women.
Ummm what?
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The Men's Rights Movement wants the same treatment that women receive for men... What man wants to be a victim?
I think that the women's rights/feminist movement was to receive the same treatment as men though? That is to empower women so that they aren't victims of domestic abuse. Sorry but men in our society are more often in a position of dominance, I don't see how people can really argue against that.
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IMO they are both ridiculous, but someone has to help the people who are not getting any help and right now, unfortunately, it's the Men's Rights Movement. I tried working with them but while I support that there should be help for men, I don't approve of calling anyone a victim. I also believe that there should be equal assistance for all. Can we think of a more empowering word for these men and women.
A more empowering word for someone who has been abused? Sorry I think that victim fits the bill pretty well for someone who has been dis-empowered by their partner. I guess you could say survivor of domestic abuse but that seems to be getting bogged down in the semantics of the argument.
How is that a ridiculous number? In a survey done in the United States in 2010 it was found that 24.3% of women and 13.8% of men were victims of domestic abuse at some point during their lives. I don't know the exact statistics for how many men have abused women but I fail to see the connection between someone posting on a hockey message board and them being impervious to having been a victim or a perpetrator of domestic abuse.
While domestic abuse against men does happen it happens with decreased regularity. You are right it isn't a male problem per say but it is a problem that is associated with a higher proportion of men and should be addressed.
Ummm what?
I think that the women's rights/feminist movement was to receive the same treatment as men though? That is to empower women so that they aren't victims of domestic abuse. Sorry but men in our society are more often in a position of dominance, I don't see how people can really argue against that.
A more empowering word for someone who has been abused? Sorry I think that victim fits the bill pretty well for someone who has been dis-empowered by their partner. I guess you could say survivor of domestic abuse but that seems to be getting bogged down in the semantics of the argument.
MMM you are the last person that I would attempt at having a reasonable discussion with. Just look to your compassion in the suicide thread...
By reading this people can get a sense of your ridiculous and clueless beliefs on people who require assistance.
NSFW!
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Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard
I agree in large part with what you are saying but this statement is complete crap. To e say that people don't have a choice and that they have no free will is garbage - people have a choice all the time not to commit suicide, they have a choice to seek help, there are so many choices that are available. I disagree with the original statement that it is the easy way out because it disregards the suffering, I think that yours is equally as foolish and potentially damaging.
NSFW!
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Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard
Free will still exists though. People still have options to get help. Of course depression (which is a spectrum - not everyone who has depression is suicidal) makes it more difficult but to say that there are no options and the free will is gone it doesn't give any credit to the people who don't kill themselves, who do get help. People always have a choice.
Also people who are rationally minded commit suicide all the time, euthanasia is based on that philosophy that people in a rationale state of mind have the right to decide when they want to end their life.
NSFW!
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Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard
It isn't ignorance it is a difference of opinion. I really don't think that people with mental illness are helpless, I still believe that there is an element of free will to actually receive treatment, to say that there isn't any free will left is a misnomer. I have experience with mental illness, both from a family, personal and professional standpoint by the way, I have a solid understanding of the impact that it can have on the individual - I will say however that people always have a semblance of free will regardless of mental illness. It may be more difficult but people have a choice to pick up the phone, to talk to someone, to get help - to say that someone doesn't have a choice in the matter is in my opinion at least incorrect. People aren't helpless to the mental illness - free will is the essence of being human and I don't think that is lost.
NSFW!
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Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard
Obviously there are different mental illnesses and there isn't one solution that fits all cases, especially with a topic as complex as depression. In the case of schizophrenia it is a biochemical disorder which is exasperated often by social situations including social isolation. With regards to depression which also can result in suicidal ideations while there are biological aspects associated with the disease it is much more complex than that. To just say that someone is depressed because there is some wiring wrong with their brain doesn't really delve any deeper into the societal constructs that are associated with the disease and rather treatment is focused on an individual level. The effect of human interaction on mood and behaviours is widely known as is the case with social isolation... although it is a chicken and the egg situation.
I think that those who do commit/attempt suicide do view it as there being no other options left and that there is no choice other than suicide (even if there are exceptions to that, usually involving alcohol), in that case I agree that they don't view there as being any other choices... however there is still the options to get help, going to an emergency department, calling a help/crisis line, going out for a walk and clearing ones head and in that case I do think that there is some degree of choice with one's actions.
Even better rebuttal, throwing out completely random arguments. It was an awkward debate that was centred around the free will associated with suicidal ideations. I then did some research and clarified my views on the subject, but sure... that works just as well.
Even better rebuttal, throwing out completely random arguments. It was an awkward debate that was centred around the free will associated with suicidal ideations. I then did some research and clarified my views on the subject, but sure... that works just as well.
Yes, there you go. I'm glad you mentioned that you researched and talked to some people about it.
Here is someone who you can learn from in this scenario which is Domestic Violence.
Erin Patria Margaret Pizzey is a English family care activist and a best-selling novelist. She became internationally famous for having started one of the first women's refuges in the modern world.
Erin Patria Margaret Pizzey (née Carney, born 19 February 1939) is a English family care activist and a best-selling novelist. She became internationally famous for having started one of the first[2] women's refuges (called women's shelters in the U.S.) in the modern world, Chiswick Women's Aid, in 1971,[3] the organisation known today as Refuge.[1] Pizzey has been the subject of death threats and boycotts because of her statement that most domestic violence is reciprocal, and that women are equally as capable of violence as men.
My views are similar to this woman. Who puts the needs of everyone above one gender.
Last edited by To Be Quite Honest; 03-01-2013 at 06:14 PM.
