Consistency

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

This is the first year I have really been concerned about #12. The team brought in a lot of his old buddies so he can be successful and he still seems to be "acting" like shadow of his former self. What else does Iggy want the Flames to do for him before he decides to start playing with the kind of energy we see from Crosby. When Theo returned for a brief stint he reminded everyone the players the fans what it is like to play with lots heart, energy and excitement. We need Iggy to step up and start being the player we is paid to be instead of being an example of "mediocre, mediocre, mediocre" which also affects the whole team. In Iggy's defense though too many times in the past he's carried the team on his back while some others, Bouque, Stajan.... were giving piss poor efforts.

This year Bowmeester, Backlund Stajan have shown more energy and excitement that we should be seeing from our "leaders".

The guy is nearly 36 and a shadow of himself in his prime. I think that we have to realize that he's going to be the third wheel of whichever scoring line he's on. He's been surpassed by Glencross and Hudler on the winger depth chart. I think he's still trying but the body isn't as able and the mind is having a tough time coming to grips with that.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by nik-

The elephant in the room, it wears number 12. I can't explain the reason, but he is really the only consistent factor. Because I just can't see a mild mannered goaltender affecting the team culture.

But I'm afraid the Flames are always destined to be this team, regardless of who's the captain. Mostly mediocre with rare flashes of brilliance.

Maybe it has nothing to do with #12 at all ... maybe this is just our fate as fans of this team.

I think Iginla is put in to a position where has no chance of succeeding. He is expected to produce like a 27 year old when he is 35 years old, and far beyond his prime. I'm not saying he isn't useful anymore, just that it's unfair to expect him to produce like a top 10 player in the league, and he will no doubt fail if our expectations are just that.

The Flames need a marquee top line player, and as mentioned by Igottago, we don't have a Marian Hossa to bail us out last second, or Patrick Kane to keep us in a game we have no business being in. If Cammalleri, Iginla or Tanguay do not score in a game, we are likely going to lose.

Sorry to go off topic there. Back on topic...

I think it's a combination of both of your theories Bingo. Our top lines are not consistent enough point producers that if they're not ON we generally lose. Consistent performance and production from our top players, we will win more hockey games than lose, example: Detroit game where we win 4-1, Cammalleri 3 points, Tanguay 2 points, Iggy with the opening goal. When our top lines get eliminated from the play then we lose, 5-1 loss to Vancouver, Iggy, Tanguay, Hudler, all pointless. Then there's the odd game where our third and fourth liners chip in, and we squeak out a win, ex. most recent Dallas game. But we obviously can't rely on Begin and Stajan to provide the bulk of the offence. So inconsistent performance due to lack of a certified marquee player on our top line produces inconsistent results.

We have the odd game where our bottom guys chip in and win, the odd game where our top guys chip in and we win, the odd game where no one chips in and we lose. Then there's our goaltending situation which just adds to everything.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The guy is nearly 36 and a shadow of himself in his prime. I think that we have to realize that he's going to be the third wheel of whichever scoring line he's on. He's been surpassed by Glencross and Hudler on the winger depth chart. I think he's still trying but the body isn't as able and the mind is having a tough time coming to grips with that.

Sadly I think your right, I guess part of me is still hoping he still has another gear "he still seems to think he does".

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Sadly I think your right, I guess part of me is still hoping he still has another gear "he still seems to think he does".

He may have one more 30+ goal, 80 point season left but not with the Flames. He needs to go to a better situation where he can ride shotgun with an elite center.

[Rubicant]

Every team is inconsistent to a certain extent - and quite often teams can appear better than they are or worse than they are depending on what the other team is doing.

It can be quite frustrating when your team appears to be a world beater one period, and then gets destroyed the next, but both teams are out of phase in terms of performance so it looks more drastic.

The teams in our conference that I feel play the most consistently are Nashville and Phoenix, with perhaps Vancouver being there as well.

At the end of the day, a teams record really does reveal the quality of the team, as talented teams will win despite their inconsistency more often than not, while bad teams will lose more often than not.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Hartley brought up consistency last night, this morning Peter Maher remarked on how he keeps hearing the same thing from coach after coach in Calgary.

So my question ....

Are the Flames more inconsistent than most? They've rolled over a good percentage of the roster since Keenan was here so can it be the same team issue year to year and coach to coach?

Or ...

Do all teams on the bubble (9-12th every season) get similar things said about them by their coaches and in their markets? Good enough to be in the mix, but not on a consistent basis to make the playoffs?

Isn't this just the same question?

By definition, being 9th-12th puts you in the top 25-30% of all teams in the NHL, so... by that they are more inconsistent than the rest of the NHL.

Are you really asking whether or not they don't produce because they are inconsistent or inconsistent because they don't have the talent/coaching/other.

[flambers]

Personally I would think, the problem is the Flames are a bubble team (talent level is below average, and they are really thin in terms of quality assets).

Therefore the Consistently element is really obvious. Especially when injuries occur and the Flames have no depth .

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

He may have one more 30+ goal, 80 point season left but not with the Flames. He needs to go to a better situation where he can ride shotgun with an elite center.

I think Iggy is actually hard to play with. For a winger he wants to handle the puck too much still - where he should be focusing on being a pure trigger man.

I don't know how well things would go if Iggy finds himself with a guy like Crosby.

[CaramonLS]

I think a lot of the consistency arguments come when you watch a team like Phoenix or Nashville, both of which have inferior rosters to the Flames in terms of talent, budget and skill, play the exact same way night in and night out, but make the playoffs and do better than the Flames.

Rightly or wrongly people ask the question - why can't the Flames play like that and win.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

I think Iginla is put in to a position where has no chance of succeeding. He is expected to produce like a 27 year old when he is 35 years old, and far beyond his prime. I'm not saying he isn't useful anymore, just that it's unfair to expect him to produce like a top 10 player in the league, and he will no doubt fail if our expectations are just that.

The Flames need a marquee top line player, and as mentioned by Igottago, we don't have a Marian Hossa to bail us out last second, or Patrick Kane to keep us in a game we have no business being in. If Cammalleri, Iginla or Tanguay do not score in a game, we are likely going to lose.

I think Cammalleri was supposed to be that guy. He is tied for our highest paid player (i.e. he's getting $7 million)

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I think a lot of the consistency arguments come when you watch a team like Phoenix or Nashville, both of which have inferior rosters to the Flames in terms of talent, budget and skill, play the exact same way night in and night out, but make the playoffs and do better than the Flames.

Not that I disagree with the point you are making entirely - but I think Nashville and Phoenix have rosters just as good, if not better than Calgary.

I like the Yotes roster quite a bit - lots of under-rated guys like Hanzal, Yandle, Boedker that don't get a ton of pub - but are quite good.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I think Iggy is actually hard to play with. For a winger he wants to handle the puck too much still - where he should be focusing on being a pure trigger man.

I don't know how well things would go if Iggy finds himself with a guy like Crosby.

Sid would make it work whether Iggy liked it or not. If Iggy can't play with Crosby, then he isn't a good hockey player anymore. And I don't believe that to be the case.

[Red Slinger]

I think consistency is a measure of three things:

1) Talent- Generally teams that are more talented don't have to rely on work ethic or systems. Guys like Stamkos, Crosby, Kane, etc. can turn the tide of a game with one play with their skill level alone.

2) Maturity- This encompasses professionalism, preparedness and leadership. Players don't get too high or too low. They know their jobs shift to shift and they, for the most part, do their jobs. I think Detroit has exemplified this for years.

3) Hockey IQ- Dumb players will make dumb plays occasionally. Smarter players will make dumb plays less often.

I think the Flames are currently lacking the game-breaker (#1) that they used to have in Iginla.

I think they are also not faring very well regarding #2 when even the veterans on the team pull the Jekyl and Hyde act. Did you ever see Yzerman, Lidstrom, Sakic, Chelios have such drastic changes in effort and execution as many of the Flames players do game to game, period to period and shift to shift? Obviously they can't all be Yzermans but it sure would be nice if they started trending more in that direction instead of what they're currently doing. How often does the captain of the Flames basically ignore his own zone? When the leader of the team isn't showing professionalism and dedication it certainly doesn't help the rest of the team.

Lastly, I think the Flames have a lot of players with low hockey IQ. We've seen the difference in having a player with high hockey IQ (Hudler) has done when he's on the ice. But core players like Iginla, Giordano, Cammalleri, Tanguay, Bouwmeester, Glencross just don' have high hockey IQ as often as they should at this point in their careers. Bourque was notorious for this also.

I think the issue of consistency points to the nucleus of what's wrong with the Flames. I think this team has no other option than to move the players that are largely responsible for the inconsistency and replace them with young talented players and responsible, mature veterans that can nurture and teach them hockey maturity.

*Not intended to be an Iginla bashing thread but, in the immortal words of Todd Bertuzzi, it is what it is.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Not that I disagree with the point you are making entirely - but I think Nashville and Phoenix have rosters just as good, if not better than Calgary.

I like the Yotes roster quite a bit - lots of under-rated guys like Hanzal, Yandle, Boedker that don't get a ton of pub - but are quite good.

Yeup. I think this is a disconnect among flames fans.

Most teams in the league have top end skill similar or better than the Flames. One problem with trying to gauge that is the history of previous accomplishments. Looking at the roster though, there are 2 guys who have previously scored 30 goals, a couple of guys with mid-to-high 20s and then...really not much at all.

Phoenix has a deeper roster with equal (I think better) high-end skill, especially from their defense.

Combine that with a complete team buy-in? 4-0 Phoenix.

[EVERLAST]

Iginla has been shooting more from the perimeter this year than I have ever seen and its not all his fault....tanguays effort to feed the puck to him in bad areas is really beginning to exasperate me.

To prove my point if you think about some of the passes Iginla has made that have turned into highlight assists by him he is on the perimeter.....look at some of the beauts Cammy has scored with passes from Jarome ....from the perimeter.

I see other guys getting in the dirty areas and Iginla playing on teh outside and ask why??? Is he hurt?? what excuse can be made for this ?? I am so tired of Iginla getting a free frickin ride for being a no show ....Warrener wasnt wrong btw...the fire is out.
Morrow was laughing at him in the Stars game ...he did nothing!!!

Consistency .....well Bob .....line juggling aint consistent. Line juggling then questioning your players sticking to the system .....your going to find yourself in a familiar place that Flames Coaches find themselves in becoming consistently unemployed but at least you'll still be collecting a paycheque....Murray Edwards makes damn sure when HE screws up HE does it consistantly.

It aint working Murray ....you gonna fire another coach??? Its gotta be the coaches and the coaches system huh b/c it just aint working for you is it .....it is never the players that get trotted out onto the big scary ice surface is it?

End Rant.

Consistency....... we are getting no where constantly consistantly and constantly keep having this conversation.

my head hurts ....but I keep coming back for more .....GO FLAMES GO

*INTENDED TO BE A Murray Edwards bashing response ....I miss Mr McCaig,Mr Hotchkiss and Doc Seaman...we seemed a much more consistant franchise when they were all alive, RIP

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by EVERLAST

Consistency .....well Bob .....line juggling aint consistent. Line juggling then questioning your players sticking to the system .....your going to find yourself in a familiar place that Flames Coaches find themselves in becoming consistently unemployed but at least you'll still be collecting a paycheque....Murray Edwards makes damn sure when HE screws up HE does it consistantly.

I think the line juggling has been a direct result of injuries and players not performing consistently. I don't think it's been the cause of the inconsistency, although, there have been a couple of cases where the line juggling has probably contributed to the already existing problem.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Yeup. I think this is a disconnect among flames fans.

Most teams in the league have top end skill similar or better than the Flames. One problem with trying to gauge that is the history of previous accomplishments. Looking at the roster though, there are 2 guys who have previously scored 30 goals, a couple of guys with mid-to-high 20s and then...really not much at all.

Phoenix has a deeper roster with equal (I think better) high-end skill, especially from their defense.

Combine that with a complete team buy-in? 4-0 Phoenix.

I can entertain the idea of Phoenix being on par with our roster, but Nashville? That is a tough pill to swallow. Iginla may actually have more 20 goal seasons than their entire roster does combined.

Just for fun though:

Mike Fisher: 5
Patric Hornqvist: 3
Sergei Kostitsyn: 1
Martin Erat: 3
David Legwand: 2
Shea Weber: 1
Total: 15

Jarome Iginla: 14

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I think the line juggling has been a direct result of injuries and players not performing consistently. I don't think it's been the cause of the inconsistency, although, there have been a couple of cases where the line juggling has probably contributed to the already existing problem.

Hartley was juggling lines after the 1st game, and changing up our best line of Game 1...

[Dr. Doom]

Good thread lots of good points made.

I think it comes down to a few points already made:

1. The players we rely on to lead are getting old, and less passionate year by year.
2. We have had no strength up the middle and this has killed us.
3. All teams lose "consistency" throughout the season, and salary cap / parody goes hand in hand with this. The truly better teams will plow through these periods better and pull off gut check wins a lot more frequently than the bad teams however.
4. Is the raw talent there enough to be a contender in this league? Shootouts seem to indicate we don't have very good hands anymore. Think Huselius when he was juicing it up for us.
5. Common theme year after year there's a lot of parts to this team that aren't contributing often enough or even at all.

In the end the bottom line is this team, as right up against the cap as it is, is not one of the better teams in a parody filled league and our teetering record is proving that.

[Rocky Raccoon]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I think Iggy is actually hard to play with. For a winger he wants to handle the puck too much still - where he should be focusing on being a pure trigger man.

I don't know how well things would go if Iggy finds himself with a guy like Crosby.

Iginla hasn't been afforded the choice for most of his career to handle the puck less. He has played mostly with average NHLers and a few good NHLers but no one great like he himself is. I believe he is now conditioned to play a certain way and there is no way to break that in Calgary.

Put him on a different team and with a player like Crosby, where it isn't Iginla's team, and I have no doubt he would easily defer to Crosby and be a great asset for that team. I think they would be amazing together.