11 games in...rate the forwards

[Gary83]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

1 goal and he gets a B-?

He's been OK in about half the games and less than OK in the other half.

He hasn't been getting as many chances as he does typically - and too many plays are dieing on his stick

But even if we forget all that - 1 goal is 1 goal. Shots, chances, and the rest of it don't really matter. He's the highest paid player on the team and needs to deliver more than a single goal through a significant chunk of this season.

So that simple tap in to Glencross? Would you prefer he shoots that? Iginla has been his usual self, the goals will come. The important thing should be that he's not firing useless shots, he is making the smart plays with the puck, the Tanguay OT goal against Columbus and that Glencross goal immediately spring to mind.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

1 goal and he gets a B-?

He's been OK in about half the games and less than OK in the other half.

He hasn't been getting as many chances as he does typically - and too many plays are dieing on his stick

But even if we forget all that - 1 goal is 1 goal. Shots, chances, and the rest of it don't really matter. He's the highest paid player on the team and needs to deliver more than a single goal through a significant chunk of this season.

Well, if we're evaluating based on stats, Cammalleri has to be an A

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

1 goal and he gets a B-?

Sure, he's getting shots and chances while (last game aside) facing tough comp. That's worth more then a "C" grade as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

But even if we forget all that - 1 goal is 1 goal. Shots, chances, and the rest of it don't really matter.

Says who? Shots, chances, and the rest are what lead to goals (or goal prevention). If you want to go broadly you may as well say that goals don't matter and just grade the whole team on points in the standings since that is ultimately the only thing that matters.

[Anduril]

Hudler: A (wow, what else?)

Cervenka: B- (Slow but doesn't seem to affect his ability to make chances. Surely will get better with time considering this is his first 11 games in The NHL)

Backlund: B- (Generally looked confident and dangerous. Such a shame that he's starting to earn the injury prone label)

Iginla: C+ (Another meh just because he hasn't gotten consistent. Good then bad then invisible then a beast.)

Tanguay: B- (So frustrating yet a point producer despite playing Center)

Stajan: B (Looked good on both ends of the ice, still needs to pot a couple of his own if he's been getting that many good chances)

Glencross: C+ (He scores but at times doesn't do much more than that and has been a tad of a liability)

Cammalleri: C- (Feel a little generous given that he was crapping the bed majority of the games in a beginning but has looked better just before the injury and broke out after)

Jones: C (Meh, doing what is expected of a 4th line guy)

Stempniak: A- (Great start, let's hope he keeps some of it up)

Comeau: D (All over the place but typically good on the PK. Don't want him anywhere else but 4th Line PK if he isn't going to hit)

Jackman: D+ (Big pile of poo most of the time but starting to look up?)

Begin: D+ (Limited playing time but looked like he knew his role and fulfilled it when he did play)

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Sure, he's getting shots and chances while (last game aside) facing tough comp. That's worth more then a "C" grade as far as I'm concerned.



Says who? Shots, chances, and the rest are what lead to goals (or goal prevention). If you want to go broadly you may as well say that goals don't matter and just grade the whole team on points in the standings since that is ultimately the only thing that matters.

Given that Iginla's game at this point in his career is sub-par in most other areas - yes goals for him are primarily what matter.

If he ain't scoring - he ain't helping.

Assists aside. He's had some nice plays.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Given that Iginla's game at this point in his career is sub-par in most other areas - yes goals for him are primarily what matter.

Evs, you grade him however you like based just on goals and I'll grade however I like based on overall performance then we'll both be happy. The goals will eventually come, I say he's a B-.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Alex Tanguay-A: 11 points in 11 games and only a -1 despite playing a much bigger defensive role at center. The guy has been asked to do a lot and responded well

Jarome Iginla-C+: Good effort in the last game, but he's been lacking fire in most of the games so far this year. I'm not too worried about him but I can only rate him on the games so far.

Curtis Glencross-B+: as always Curtis gives me headaches with his blind passes and unintelligent plays, BUT he always hustles and produces offensively.

Jiri Hudler-A+: 9 points in 8 games, showing great creativity, good board battler, and excellent craftiness with his stick to play defense. He's been better than advertised, and all that right after his father passed away far too young. Keep it up Jiri!

Mikael Backlund-B+: had been producing offensively and was responsible defensively. Regularly provided great energy and skating every night and was a real sparkplug in the lineup. His injury hurt this lineup more than we know.

Roman Cervenka-B-: Roman has had some very nice flashes of offensive creativity. His skating is a little subpar still for the NHL and his physicality is lacking at times. Defensively he's done fine but not spectacular. Still adapting to the N.A. game obviously.

Mike Cammalleri-C+: What a difference 2 games makes! When he's on he's very dangerous every shift. Problem is when he's not scoring he's a liability defensively and gets pushed around physically, not to mention his skating takes a dive. Hopefully he gets some more consistency in his game.

Lee Stempniak-A: Lee has been our most consistent forward so far this year. He might be on one of his "hot streaks" right now, but he looks like the forward who regularly scored 20 goals a year. Not to mention he's been defensively very good and is second on the team at +5.

Matt Stajan-A-: Matt looks like a different player this year. Has shown great offensive prowess when he plays with talented wingers and has played tireless defense in his own end. Leads the team in plus minus at +6 despite only having 5 assists. Would have been rated higher except he hasn't scored despite many opportunities and his physical play still needs work.

Blake Comeau-D: Blake seems to only be able to skate and hit anymore, and he doesn't do either enough for my liking. He is a terrible passer and playmaker, and his penalty killing has taken a step back from last year. He's been better in the last couple games, but still needs to improve. Is a team worst -5.

Blair Jones-C+: is a great energy center. Has skated well and been physical more often than not. Has had a few games where the offensive chances have been there, but yet to bury any. I would like to see just a little more tenacity when those opportunities arise...be a gritty/grimy player.

Steve Begin-C+: surprisingly good skater for his history of injury and age. Works tirelessly in every game and adds good physicality and penalty killing. He's doing what's asked of him but doesn't add a ton to the team.

Tim Jackman-B-: Could be better but Tim skates hard every game, hits everything he can, and has had some nice offensive opportunities. Hasn't dropped the gloves enough when the team needs a lift.

No other forward has played enough to garner a rating IMO.

Just for the record, I think the forward group has done a pretty good job overall but there's still room to improve as they learn Hartley's system. The defensemen have all been quite good except for Giordano's mystifying recent lack of decision making and Butler's terrible overall play. The only weak point on this team so far this season has been goaltending.

[Stay Golden]

Hudler: A+ One of the smartest combined with talent 200ft players that has been with the Flames for quite some time.

Cervenka: B Lacking in stamina but he has been ray of hope for the Flames. He is just going to improve every week.

Backlund: B Looked like a rejuvenated player. Too bad the injury is going to set him back again.

Iginla: C+ Goal scoring drought for some time now, but has turned into a decent play maker. Still want him to get more involved with gives him that chip on his shoulder. I feel that with all his scoring chances the puck is soon to start going in.

Tanguay: B+ We all want him to shoot more but he has proven to be able to play C, it takes a gifted player to switch at his age and somehow he is effective. When it comes down to it he has come through for the Flames and his goals assists have mattered.

Stajan: B Maybe the most improved player on the team, but how much has playing with Hudler Cervenka improved his game. He hasn't been as effective when Hartley has moved him around. One of the better players on the PK though.

Glencross: C Proving to be very streaky. Has missed so many clear chances we coould have won more games if he woul;d have finished. Maybe that Iggy set up goal gets him going again.
Another player that needs to be involved physically and hasn't been consistent about it.

Cammalleri: C I have been pretty frustrated with his start. If he starts to play like vs Dallas consistently he will turn his season around in a big way. I'm not fully sold on Cammy and would like see if Feaster quietly floated his name to some GM's see what they would offer for him. Turns the puck over too many times for my liking.

Jones: C Again where is the pest it looked like Jones was going to be and he doesn't use his 6'3 frame to his advantage. Needs to be much more physical.

Stempniak: A Full marks prior to this season i would give him a C. Even though he has a reputation as a streaky scorer, it is welcomed. He has improved quite a bit in the defensive zone and has not been guilty of many offensive zone turnovers which a major problem last season.

Comeau: F I can't even comment on how bad he is.

Jackman: C for effort but a D in the getting into fights early in a game department. It is a big reason he is on the roster and he isn't doing it. I have noticed he has turned away from several invites.

Begin: C He has to be a pest every game to make sense for me to have him on the roster and I havn't seen that other than a TooToo scrap. Positives he has kept up with pace and skated better then i expected and been ok on the pk.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Alex Tanguay-A: 11 points in 11 games and only a -1 despite playing a much bigger defensive role at center. The guy has been asked to do a lot and responded well

Jarome Iginla-C+: Good effort in the last game, but he's been lacking fire in most of the games so far this year. I'm not too worried about him but I can only rate him on the games so far.

Curtis Glencross-B+: as always Curtis gives me headaches with his blind passes and unintelligent plays, BUT he always hustles and produces offensively.

Jiri Hudler-A+: 9 points in 8 games, showing great creativity, good board battler, and excellent craftiness with his stick to play defense. He's been better than advertised, and all that right after his father passed away far too young. Keep it up Jiri!

Mikael Backlund-B+: had been producing offensively and was responsible defensively. Regularly provided great energy and skating every night and was a real sparkplug in the lineup. His injury hurt this lineup more than we know.

Roman Cervenka-B-: Roman has had some very nice flashes of offensive creativity. His skating is a little subpar still for the NHL and his physicality is lacking at times. Defensively he's done fine but not spectacular. Still adapting to the N.A. game obviously.

Mike Cammalleri-C+: What a difference 2 games makes! When he's on he's very dangerous every shift. Problem is when he's not scoring he's a liability defensively and gets pushed around physically, not to mention his skating takes a dive. Hopefully he gets some more consistency in his game.

Lee Stempniak-A: Lee has been our most consistent forward so far this year. He might be on one of his "hot streaks" right now, but he looks like the forward who regularly scored 20 goals a year. Not to mention he's been defensively very good and is second on the team at +5.

Matt Stajan-A-: Matt looks like a different player this year. Has shown great offensive prowess when he plays with talented wingers and has played tireless defense in his own end. Leads the team in plus minus at +6 despite only having 5 assists. Would have been rated higher except he hasn't scored despite many opportunities and his physical play still needs work.

Blake Comeau-D: Blake seems to only be able to skate and hit anymore, and he doesn't do either enough for my liking. He is a terrible passer and playmaker, and his penalty killing has taken a step back from last year. He's been better in the last couple games, but still needs to improve. Is a team worst -5.

Blair Jones-C+: is a great energy center. Has skated well and been physical more often than not. Has had a few games where the offensive chances have been there, but yet to bury any. I would like to see just a little more tenacity when those opportunities arise...be a gritty/grimy player.

Steve Begin-C+: surprisingly good skater for his history of injury and age. Works tirelessly in every game and adds good physicality and penalty killing. He's doing what's asked of him but doesn't add a ton to the team.

Tim Jackman-B-: Could be better but Tim skates hard every game, hits everything he can, and has had some nice offensive opportunities. Hasn't dropped the gloves enough when the team needs a lift.

No other forward has played enough to garner a rating IMO.

Just for the record, I think the forward group has done a pretty good job overall but there's still room to improve as they learn Hartley's system. The defensemen have all been quite good except for Giordano's mystifying recent lack of decision making and Butler's terrible overall play. The only weak point on this team so far this season has been goaltending.

Hmm, hmm, yup, yup... Pretty much. Yeah, what that guy said.

[kirant]

Using C as "meets my expectations at the start of the year"

Jiri Hudler: A. Creative, talented, and great instincts offensively. He's a huge shakeup to a fairly linear minded forward core.
Roman Cervenka: A-. I did not expect him to be anywhere near where he was. At best, I was hoping for a 30 point over 82 game forward. Glad I'm wrong.
Alex Tanguay: B. The experiment at centre is going better than expected. He's back to that excellent vision on ice and is making passe I would expect no other Flame to make. Really needs to stop looking for the perfect play though and shoot himself...something he's worked on more and more, but still needs to practice using his own good wrist shot.
Jarome Iginla: C. This is basically what I expected out of a 35 year old power forward-turned-sniper. He's not fast enough to burn past skaters, not strong enough to muscle through them, and needs to rely on cherry picking a bit more.
Curtis Glencross: B-. Same old inconsistent player. He'll be a dominant force every once in a while, but shows that he can't be relied on to carry the team as he'll vanish for stretches. I'm pretty surprised he's on pace for just under 40 goals this year.
Mike Cammalleri: C-. Aside from his last game, he's been pretty disappointing. He's trying. Nobody is giving him that. But he's also seeming more inconsistent than he was when he potted 39 goals.
Mikael Backlund: A-. If only he had hands. Backlund is showing exactly why he was drafted in the 1st. Solid mentality, good skating, and isn't as weak as he was last year. It's too bad his great season was ruined by an injury.
Lee Stempniak: B. See Glencross. He's inconsistent, but a real threat when he's doing well.
Matt Stajan: B+. Did not see this coming. Stajan just had a career resurrection when he got a chance with players who seem to play a game more suited to him.
Blair Jones: C. Really, the energy line has not been doing anything good or interesting for the most part. Jones included.
Tim Jackman: C. See Jones.
Steve Begin: C+. See Jones. Begin gets a little more leeway because I expected him to look old and slow. Instead, he just looks like another Jackman.
Blake Comeau: D. Not hitting much and not performing well on the PK. Those were his only two assets he could bring to the team. It seems he completely forgot the crash-the-net mentality that got him 20 goals with the Islanders of all teams.
Sven Baertschi: N/A (or C if I need to enter a value). I think nobody expected him to be an all star this year. He's showing flashes of brilliance, but needs to get bigger, stronger, and more experienced in his own end to be a real impact NHLer.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by kirant

Using C as "meets my expectations at the start of the year"

YMMV but I personally think that letter grading relative to expectations probably isn't the best way to go about things.

I mean take this hypothetical... you expect a guy to score 50 goals a year and be a really good tough minute two-way forward... say that guy scores 40 goals and everything else was as expected? I mean does that guy actually get graded as less then a "C"?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

People are being too kind to the Captain. 1 goal nearly a quarter a way into the season. Not good enough.
D.

Come on Jiri. That's a drive by post popping in to grade only one guy. What's your opinion of the other guys?

[Jason14h]

I mean take this hypothetical... you expect a guy to score 50 goals a year and be a really good tough minute two-way forward... say that guy scores 40 goals and everything else was as expected? I mean does that guy actually get graded as less then a "C"?

Yes, Assuming it was a realistic expectation.

How else can you grade the players? Obviously Iginla is better then Begin as a player.

[blankall]

Don't see how anyone can give Tanguay anything less than an "A". The guy is playing amazing. His only fault so far is that he looks to Iggy too much, and Iggy is playing like crap. Tanguay's being paid 3.5 mil a season and giving us PPG play so far.

Giordano, Iggy, and Kipper (before his last game), are the big holes in our team so far.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Come on Jiri. That's a drive by post popping in to grade only one guy. What's your opinion of the other guys?

Sure thing:

Jiri Hudler: A: A way more complete player than I thought he was. Tougher, smarter and just better. His possession game has been a huge addition.

Roman Cervenka: B: – Looks like an NHL player for sure, just a matter of how good he can be. Looks like he has great instincts and fantastic hands – nice release on his shot. I expect by end of year this will be a A-

Alex Tanguay: A-: Delivering what you expect. Leading the team in scoring and making big plays at critical times of the game. The inconsistency is still there but he’s been good more often than not.

Jarome Iginla: D+: One goal. Spotty D. Not making enough of an impact

Curtis Glencross: B-: Needs to become more consistent.

Mike Cammalleri: C+: Stats look great but he’s been bad in far more games than he’s been good in. His stats are bolstered by 2 recent monster games.

Mikael Backlund: B+: Was maturing into a legitimate top 6 until injured.

Lee Stempniak: B+: Similar to Tanguay, the streakiness is still there but he’s giving you a lot of value and has scored some important goals

Matt Stajan: B: Has found a role on the team, would like to see some offensive production now follow

Blair Jones: C+: Hasn’t created enough energy from his spot

Tim Jackman: C: Adequate but not enough of an impact

Steve Begin: C: No issues really, but also not really impressive

Blake Comeau: C: People hate this guy but in the role he’s been put in, including as a PKer he hasn’t been bad.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by blankall

Don't see how anyone can give Tanguay anything less than an "A". The guy is playing amazing. His only fault so far is that he looks to Iggy too much, and Iggy is playing like crap. Tanguay's being paid 3.5 mil a season and giving us PPG play so far.

Giordano, Iggy, and Kipper (before his last game), are the big holes in our team so far.

IMO, Tanguay's performance in the 2nd Vancouver game was about as bad as a $3.5M player could possibly produce. One game, but it has to be factored in.

Mostly though, he has been good or very good, IMO. And last game he was excellent.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Yes, Assuming it was a realistic expectation.

Why?

I mean, on a standard grading scale if a student get's an 85% on an exam when he usually get's 95% he doesn't get an "F"... why should this be any different.

Originally Posted by Jason14h

How else can you grade the players? Obviously Iginla is better then Begin as a player.

And hence Iginla should get a better grade then Begin. I'd give him a better grade then Begin anyways... he creates more offense, eats more minutes, plays tougher comp. Begin just takes up space playing against other guys that just take up space. Jarome Iginla is a better hockey player then Steve Begin so he should get a better grade.

Jiri Hudler: A+
Roman Cervenka: B
Alex Tanguay: A-
Jarome Iginla: B-
Curtis Glencross: B-
Mike Cammalleri: C+
Mikael Backlund: A-
Lee Stempniak: B
Matt Stajan: C+
Blair Jones: C-
Tim Jackman: D
Steve Begin: D
Blake Comeau: D

Is how I'd grade it.

[neo45]

I did my grading as if I was handing a report card to each player, so expectations factored in highly. Similar to a performance review.

Obviously no one is saying that Begin is better at hockey than Iginla

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

IMO, Tanguay's performance in the 2nd Vancouver game was about as bad as a $3.5M player could possibly produce. One game, but it has to be factored in.

Mostly though, he has been good or very good, IMO. And last game he was excellent.

Tanguay was not the only issue in that game. Not a single player was anythign above a D in those last two periods.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I mean take this hypothetical... you expect a guy to score 50 goals a year and be a really good tough minute two-way forward... say that guy scores 40 goals and everything else was as expected? I mean does that guy actually get graded as less then a "C"?

I might not expect a guy to definitely hit 50 goals, though your logic is fairly sound as the goal scoring is toggled. If Iginla scored 25 and got 50 over 82 games, I'd give him a lower score than Jackman scoring double digits goals if they played the rest of the game as they did now.

Agreed that it's slightly flawed, but I prefer having a system that measures grinders up to stars on the same level. No "Stars get passes for scoring lots, but less than expected" getting higher rankings than bottom 6 guys playing their hearts out.