Difference between rebuild and business as usual

[ComixZone]

I don't think a burn it to the ground fire sale rebuild should happen in Calgary. That's bad news for fans, and we deserve better (the farce that is going on in Edmonton is a good example of that).

However, trading Iginla and Kipper would simply be a "reloading" at this stage. They're not carrying this team, they're veterans who are within a few years of "the end" who could be important final touches on other rosters. Trading them for more assets is smarter than just letting them fade into irrelevancy on our roster.

We have lots of good players on our roster. We have a succession plan for the #1 goalie position (Ramo), and at this stage Iginla needs to play with players better than him in order to be effective - which is something the Flames can't offer him.

Trade them both, draft in the top 3 this summer and then try to spend money on Getzlaf in free agency.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

Have there been any examples of teams rebuilding in the sense of what many are asking the Flames to do?

In recent NHL history, the Capitals, Devils, and Blues have all systematically moved out significant veterans for picks and prospects as part of a long-term strategy.

And of course, there are a host of NFL, NBA, and MLB teams that have done the same thing. As I noted, it's not a strategy confined to the NHL, and it's not new. Google NFL rebuilds.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

In recent NHL history, the Capitals, Devils, and Blues have all systematically moved out significant veterans for picks and prospects as part of a long-term strategy.

And of course, there are a host of NFL, NBA, and MLB teams that have done the same thing. As I noted, it's not a strategy confined to the NHL, and it's not new. Google NFL rebuilds.

And the Bruins, including firing Dave Lewis in year 1 of a 4 year deal.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Calgary has done a much better job in drafting of late

People always say it. Every year it seems like drafting has improved lately.

And how exactly did it improve?

2007 — Backlund made NHL. Keith Aulie turned into bubble NHLer.

2008 — Brodie made NHL. Nemisz played 15 NHL games.Bouma has had 23.

2009 — Tim Erixon is the only player Flames drafted who at least had some NHL games.

2010 — picks have combined for 0 NHL games this far (we had no 1st mind you)

2011 — Baertschi has played some games and looks promising. Lower ranks are too early to tell.

What we have for last 5 drafts (2012 exluded) is just Backlund, Brodie and Baertchi. I don't see how it is much better than say 2004 draft when we got Prust, Boyd and Pardy at the very same draft. Or 2003 when we got Phaneuf. Or 2002 when we got Lombardi, Nystrom and McElhinney. I don't see how drafting had improved much "lately".

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Only if those vets have an element of success. If you have vets who have won cups and/or long playoff runs teaching the rookies it's good. If you have vets who have won a couple of individual awards and that's it, than it's not a good situation.

I would say that Iggy isn't as good of a mentor as he used to be and other than him I don't consider any of our vets to be that good of an influance on any rookies

Jiri Hudler: Stanley cup ring, 66 playoff games
Cory Sarich: Stanley cup ring, 57 playoff games
Alex Tanguay: Stanley cup ring, 98 playoff games

[Beatle17]

Trade them both, draft in the top 3 this summer and then try to spend money on Getzlaf in free agency.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree. Iginla doesn't seem interested, or engaged if you will, and Kipper can still be Kipper, but I think he may get you more than Iginla does in a trade. I think the Flames already started addressing the change in leadership last off season when they started signing people like Hudler and Cervenka. They look to be the future offensive leaders and will hold the fort until such players as Gadreau, Reinhart, Jankowski etc., are ready to play.

I believe you can rebuild the team without the scorched earth policy, but you really need the scouts and management to pick decent players, which we have been lately.

It could be rough for the next year or two in Calgary but I think there are more positives coming down the road. I personally don't think that you trade away everyone and draft the Taylor Hall type player and just expect them to be your leaders. They eventually can grow into that type of player, but I would rather see a player like Sven be brought along in a less stressful situation and be allowed to grow into the leadership role (I only used these two players as examples so don't jump up and down about who is a better player). With signings such as Hudler, Cervenka and GETZLAFF (my personal choice for free agent target) would allow the leadership group to be in the 26-30 year old range and the younger players can develop and push these players out over time, such as Detroit/Pha/NJ do with their players.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I have nothing against rebuilding, but you do that in the offseason, or at least wait until the trade deadline to make the moves.

Don't do a rebuild mid-season, wait until the trade deadline when you can maximize returns.

No rebuild moves at trade deadline.

Wait until the draft, that's when we'll really be able to maximize returns and get some draft-day steals.

No rebuild moves at draft.

Wait until free agency, then we'll have a better idea or needs, and we can take a run at some hot young free agents.

No rebuild moves during free agency beyond a couple second-tier 27+ players.

We have exciting new additions to the team, so let's not make any rebuild moves until we get a handle on how the team gels.

Repeat... repeat... repeat.

We've see this story for years. For some fans, there will never be a good time to take a chance and take a new strategy because success is just around the corner. It's the Maple Leafs Nation approach to NHL strategy. All it requires is infinite optimism.

[Flash Walken]

Waiting until the trade deadline is also a fools errand.

What if the player you want to move is hurt at the deadline and you had a deal on the table in February for the same player and didn't take it.

It all comes down to placing appropriate asset values onto players. Once a deal comes along that outdoes that valuation, you take it.

Flames can't afford to wait and see on a player like Iginla in hopes that some team steps up crazy in the final hour of the deadline.

If there is a good deal on the table between now and then you take it. Worst case scenario Iginla/Kipper are hurt at the deadline.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So a rebuild is only a rebuild if its done exactly the way the OP wants it to be done.

Got it.

Do you follow other teams, other sports, other leagues? Rebuild isn't some new concept, just because Flames fans have only been talking about it for a few years. The concept of a rebuild is pretty clearly established in professional sports. Except among Flames fans, its seems.

[Igster]

Originally Posted by Pointman

What we have for last 5 drafts (2012 exluded) is just Backlund, Brodie and Baertchi.

So it's clear then. Flames should only draft players whose names begin with 'B'. Simple enough.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Repeat... repeat... repeat.

We've see this story for years. For some fans, there will never be a good time to take a chance and take a new strategy because success is just around the corner. It's the Maple Leafs Nation approach to NHL strategy. All it requires is infinite optimism.

I don't think success is right around the corner. I have been advocating a rebuild for the past 2 seasons. I'm just saying, the market for different assets is affected by the time of season.

For example, one of the biggest mistakes Sutter made was trading Phaneuf in January. In the offseason, there would be many more teams able to take on expensive, long term deals and willing to give up more in return. In the same vein, the market closer to the playoffs will be different for rentals than it is now. There is quite a change in supply and demand over the course of a year and good management will execute accordingly.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do you follow other teams, other sports, other leagues? Rebuild isn't some new concept, just because Flames fans have only been talking about it for a few years. The concept of a rebuild is pretty clearly established in professional sports. Except among Flames fans, its seems.

It's a good question that the naysayers should respond to. How do you rebuild in a materially different way from the basic method you outlined in the opening post?

Lets hear it.

I'm not saying you can't I just want a discussion on whether there are different ways to skin a cat.

It's an important question because the organization needs to identify a strategy and follow it. Rock Solid Plan v2.0.

[Poe969]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

Jiri Hudler: Stanley cup ring, 66 playoff games
Cory Sarich: Stanley cup ring, 57 playoff games
Alex Tanguay: Stanley cup ring, 98 playoff games

Hudler was secondary scoring on the Wings. He's not really a Vet yet but does posses the ability to be our best player.

Sarich is almost done in the NHL.

Tangs hasn't played like he cares at all in the past few years.


Success is success but how long did those rings come? Hudler was a rookie when he won wasn't he? He also left the NHL over a contract and the Wings decided not to sign him so he went after money. Sarich won the cup in 04 and hasn't done much since than. Tangs won the cup on a stacked Avs team and since then has got used to being on a team that makes the push for 8th. None of these guys have done anything worth while in some time, they've been too complacent for too long

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by Pointman

People always say it. Every year it seems like drafting has improved lately.

And how exactly did it improve?

2007 — Backlund made NHL. Keith Aulie turned into bubble NHLer.

2008 — Brodie made NHL. Nemisz played 15 NHL games.Bouma has had 23.

2009 — Tim Erixon is the only player Flames drafted who at least had some NHL games.

2010 — picks have combined for 0 NHL games this far (we had no 1st mind you)

2011 — Baertschi has played some games and looks promising. Lower ranks are too early to tell.

What we have for last 5 drafts (2012 exluded) is just Backlund, Brodie and Baertchi. I don't see how it is much better than say 2004 draft when we got Prust, Boyd and Pardy at the very same draft. Or 2003 when we got Phaneuf. Or 2002 when we got Lombardi, Nystrom and McElhinney. I don't see how drafting had improved much "lately".

Comparing the 2011 draft (Baertschi/Granlund/Gaudreau/Wotherspoon/Brossoit) to the 2004 draft I don't see how anyone can't see a progression in our drafting. Obviously it's too early to tell how well they will do at the professional level there is a clear difference in overall drafting philosophy.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

This is thrown out there alot. There are many different ways to skin a cat, so I would challenge you to name different ways to rebuild.

Well the reality is that each strategy a team employs will be different. There isn’t a step by step road map for a re-build that teams crack open and follow.

Moreover, re-build is a strategy in and of itself and not the only one.

Take a look at any cup winning team and you’ll see a different strategy being executed.

[Imported_Aussie]

For a rebuild to happen, Feaster, Weisbrod and co. need to do the following;
1. Admit that this season is lost - which will happen when realistic playoff chance gone
2. Set a window for when the team has a chance to compete again.
3. Move players under contract that are not part of the team when that window opens for young assets. If the window is close, as in 1-2 seasons, prioritize picking up the rights to guys drafted recently who are close to NHL ready. If the window is 3 or more years, pick up draft picks.
4. Promote young guys to give them NHL exposure, based on who has a chance at NHL action the soonest

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Hudler was secondary scoring on the Wings. He's not really a Vet yet but does posses the ability to be our best player.

Sarich is almost done in the NHL.

Tangs hasn't played like he cares at all in the past few years.


Success is success but how long did those rings come? Hudler was a rookie when he won wasn't he? He also left the NHL over a contract and the Wings decided not to sign him so he went after money. Sarich won the cup in 04 and hasn't done much since than. Tangs won the cup on a stacked Avs team and since then has got used to being on a team that makes the push for 8th. None of these guys have done anything worth while in some time, they've been too complacent for too long

Hudler's rookie year was '03/'04. I guess I don't really understand what you're looking for in leadership roles. So they need to have recent playoff success as primary scorers in order to provide useful leadership for players?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do you follow other teams, other sports, other leagues? Rebuild isn't some new concept, just because Flames fans have only been talking about it for a few years. The concept of a rebuild is pretty clearly established in professional sports. Except among Flames fans, its seems.

Not sure why you would say this. The subject of a re-build for this organization has been around for years - and perhaps the biggest debate on this site. As one would expect you've had a variety of opinions on weather this is the way to go, but there's been fair representation on all sides. I think as time has gone on more people have been clamouring for a re-build, but to suggest that the concept is foreign "among Flames fans" feels like an unnecessary shot at the fan base.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Well the reality is that each strategy a team employs will be different. There isn’t a step by step road map for a re-build that teams crack open and follow.

Moreover, re-build is a strategy in and of itself and not the only one.

Take a look at any cup winning team and you’ll see a different strategy being executed.

I think this is very vague.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I think this is very vague.

Well what the heck do you want? Each case is unique in and of itself. To try and attach terms to strategies is silly.

The approach the Kings took to the cup is different than the approach the Pens took and is different than the approach the Hawks took and is different than the approach the Devils took. Do you really want me to breakdown HOW each of those is different? Surely you are knowledgeable enough about hockey to know that yourself.