[News] Calgary Herald: Flames stay mum on timeline, location for new arena

[BlueLine]

What are the weaknesss of the current Stampede grounds site?

I would demolish the Corral before the Saddledome, why keep the corral but not the dome?

Isn't Calgary obliged to keep all Olympic landmarks as part of their Olympic pledge; to build the facilities into the city's future sports/athletic community? I thought this 'pledge' was one of the main reasons we were granted the Olympics.

I feel the West side of Calgary doesn't need the added advantage of a new facility, compared to the East. The East side needs some love/vacination.

[Buck Murdock]

Erlton location seems to be the most realistic, hopefully it goes there. I believe there is a major hotel/shopping development going there as well.

[karl262]

I've never understood why some people are so against any tax dollars going towards a sports arena. A sports arena is very different from any other type of real estate, it will not appreciate and when it reaches the end of its life cycle its worthless. Once the new arena is built, and who knows when that will be, the 'dome will be demolished because it isn't worth anything. Yes, the owners are very wealthy and some people feel that they should pay for it because they can, but they didn't become wealthy by owning a sports franchise. Very few actually see the kind of returns on their investments in sports franchises that they should to make something a sound business decision. They do it because they are fans primarily.

No business organization is going to foot the bill for an entire arena when they are barely making a profit. If having the Flames in Calgary is a net benefit for the citizens in all respects, then public money should go into a new arena. The debate should be how many tax dollars are put into the new arena, not if any should be put in at all.

[GGG]

The saddledome meets the cities and provinces needs, it even allows the flames to be profitable. So the situation is not urgent yet. Planning is ongoing, i dont think their is. Any point in publicaly lobbying the government when it is running a deficit. It would kill good will pretty quickly.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Tyler

I think its fairly obvious that the Flames aren't going to announce a thing until shovels are in the ground in Edmonton.

I think that was the plan, but I don't know if the flames owners are willing to wait that long. Edmonton is nowhere near getting the funding they require.

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I think that was the plan, but I don't know if the flames owners are willing to wait that long. Edmonton is nowhere near getting the funding they require.

I don't know about 'nowhere near'.

Flames are a top 10 revenue team and the Saddledome is not falling apart by any means. It's nearly a decade newer than Rexall and has had millions and millions of dollars worth of renovations added to it.

It's really seems to me like just a lot of rhetoric and posturing. It doesn't make sense to start announcing plans and securing funding until they know what is going on up North. If Edmonton gets an ounce of taxpayer money, the Flames would be stupid not to piggy back onto that gravy train.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by karl262

I've never understood why some people are so against any tax dollars going towards a sports arena. A sports arena is very different from any other type of real estate, it will not appreciate and when it reaches the end of its life cycle its worthless. Once the new arena is built, and who knows when that will be, the 'dome will be demolished because it isn't worth anything. Yes, the owners are very wealthy and some people feel that they should pay for it because they can, but they didn't become wealthy by owning a sports franchise. Very few actually see the kind of returns on their investments in sports franchises that they should to make something a sound business decision. They do it because they are fans primarily.

No business organization is going to foot the bill for an entire arena when they are barely making a profit. If having the Flames in Calgary is a net benefit for the citizens in all respects, then public money should go into a new arena. The debate should be how many tax dollars are put into the new arena, not if any should be put in at all.

I cannot disagree enough with you. To argue the Saddeldome is near worthlessness, when the flames are a profitable club and the concerts that roll through are profitable (Garth Brooks says hi) proves it has worth. If had had no worth, it wouldn't have multiple profitable clubs attached to it.

Why do I not want my tax dollars going to that arena? Because I use it 5-6 times a year, I drive our roads every day. Build me overpasses and LRT lines to the north/SE.

As for the flames "barley making a profit", I would love to see some sort of proof of this. If the NHL is really that unprofitable in our city, and we need to invest in an arena to keep the club in our city (I agree, they bring investments to our city) we can have this discussion. However, no one believes the flames will be relocated, and so the flames should get $0.00 funding from me. When Katz threatened to move the oilers, no one believed it, yet somehow that argument worked, which made me think of him has a sleazy owner.

I don't blame the owners for lobbying for free money, I would in their position, but there is no reason to give it to them. If they want something new, let them build it, otherwise I will use our very worthwhile arena 5-6 times a year for the next 20 years.

They do it because they are fans primarily.

This is bull, they do it because they want to charge more for more luxury boxes and seats, and their investment of the flames becomes worth a whole lot more money. This why they want a new arena, because it substantially increases a large investment they own.

[CedarMeter]

^^ I agree..Get rid of the Deerfoot squeeze..That piece of road pisses me off far more than the Flames ever would.

[zztim81]

Our family is heavily involved with chuckwagon racing and TB racing in general, a couple of years ago there was an agreement to take all racing out of the stampede grounds and move it to the new track at Cross Iron Mills, at the time there was no interest in closing the track at the grounds because of the chuckwagons and cash cow of the Rangeland derby. Since then the track at Cross Iron has never been built though I heard there maybe new interest in a new track development on the outskirts of the city.

So what's this have to do with the saddledome? This summer the track is being shortened from 5-8 of a mile to 1-2 mile, which pretty much means no more cart or TB racing with a new track in the area, and partly with the negitive outlook on the rangland derby, there has been discussions with the chuckwagon associations (WPCA and CPCA) that within 2 years there might not be chuckwagon racing at the stampede. So, if that's the case, there is suddenly a lot more land available on the grounds(track and more importantly horse barns) for a new area and a football stadium complex, this might look like I'm reading too much in the tea leaves, but it makes a lot of sense and provides the stampede board options to replace the wagon racing at the stampede as well as work to the benifit of the flames and stampeders.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by BlueLine

What are the weaknesss of the current Stampede grounds site?

I would demolish the Corral before the Saddledome, why keep the corral but not the dome?

Isn't Calgary obliged to keep all Olympic landmarks as part of their Olympic pledge; to build the facilities into the city's future sports/athletic community? I thought this 'pledge' was one of the main reasons we were granted the Olympics.

I feel the West side of Calgary doesn't need the added advantage of a new facility, compared to the East. The East side needs some love/vacination.

I believe the main weakness of the Stampede Grounds is that Stampede Park is owned by the City and operated by the Stampede Board. Building there again would keep them in a similar situation to where they are now except unlike the Saddledome, which was paid for entirely with public funds, the Flames would be expected to pay for the bulk of the costs of the new building(s). If you're going to be paying for the construction of your new home, you don't want to have to answer to a landlord (this is the same reason they'd be looking at building a new stadium rather than upgrading McMahon).

Also, if the plans now include a stadium for the Stamps, there isn't really suitable space on Stampede Park.


The reason you would keep the Corral and tear down the Saddledome is that the Corral can serve a different market than the new building would, while the Saddledome would be made redundant by the new building.

Having one 6,000 seat arena and one 20,000 seat arena allows each one to book different types of events and work together. Having two 20,000 seat arenas means that you lose the ability to offer a smaller venue as an alternative, and the two large buildings would be in competition for booking large scale events. Because it wouldn't be able to offer the amenities of the new building, the Saddledome would be underused, but it would still have significant operation and maintenance costs.


The Olympics were nearly 25 years ago and Canada has already hosted another Winter Games since then. I'd say the Saddledome has fulfilled any legacy requirements.


I agree with you that the east side of downtown (East Victoria Park) ultimately makes more sense for the location of a new sports and entertainment complex than the west side of downtown.

[albertGQ]

Do what the Oilers did and implement a ticket tax effective immediately. No tax dollars for billionaire owners please.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by Kavy

I cannot disagree enough with you. To argue the Saddeldome is near worthlessness, when the flames are a profitable club and the concerts that roll through are profitable (Garth Brooks says hi) proves it has worth. If had had no worth, it wouldn't have multiple profitable clubs attached to it.

Why do I not want my tax dollars going to that arena? Because I use it 5-6 times a year, I drive our roads every day. Build me overpasses and LRT lines to the north/SE.

As for the flames "barley making a profit", I would love to see some sort of proof of this. If the NHL is really that unprofitable in our city, and we need to invest in an arena to keep the club in our city (I agree, they bring investments to our city) we can have this discussion. However, no one believes the flames will be relocated, and so the flames should get $0.00 funding from me. When Katz threatened to move the oilers, no one believed it, yet somehow that argument worked, which made me think of him has a sleazy owner.

I don't blame the owners for lobbying for free money, I would in their position, but there is no reason to give it to them. If they want something new, let them build it, otherwise I will use our very worthwhile arena 5-6 times a year for the next 20 years.




This is bull, they do it because they want to charge more for more luxury boxes and seats, and their investment of the flames becomes worth a whole lot more money. This why they want a new arena, because it substantially increases a large investment they own.

Calgary Flames

Team Value1$220 MTeam Value calculated November 2011
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At a Glance

• Country: Canada
• Owner: Calgary Flames LP
• Championships: 1
• Price Paid: $16 M
• Year Purchased: 1980
• Revenue2: $105 M
• Operating Income3: $1.1 M
• Debt/Value4: 15%
• Player Expenses5: $68 M
• Gate Receipts6: $56 M
• Revenue per Fan8: $85

http://www.forbes.com/teams/calgary-flames/

As for the building being worthless once it reaches the end of its life cycle, its absolutely true. When a new building is completed it will attract all of the concerts and special events on top of the Flames, Roughnecks and Hitmen games. With no events being held in the Saddledome it is a money loser and therefore worthless. It will be torn down soon after a new arena is built.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Tyler

I don't know about 'nowhere near'.

Flames are a top 10 revenue team and the Saddledome is not falling apart by any means. It's nearly a decade newer than Rexall and has had millions and millions of dollars worth of renovations added to it.

It's really seems to me like just a lot of rhetoric and posturing. It doesn't make sense to start announcing plans and securing funding until they know what is going on up North. If Edmonton gets an ounce of taxpayer money, the Flames would be stupid not to piggy back onto that gravy train.

Still, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Calgary's new arena opens up before Edmonton's.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by FlyingDonutz

We should just renovate the saddledome.. It's easily the best looking arena in the NHL.

You can't stick a flower in an a-hole and call it a vase

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Kavy

Why do I not want my tax dollars going to that arena? Because I use it 5-6 times a year, I drive our roads every day. Build me overpasses and LRT lines to the north/SE.

There isn't another city in north america that's been under constant construction like Calgary over the last decade. Honestly it's time to put some money into other areas besides road construction. Go to Edmonton, Montreal or Saskatoon and all of a sudden our roads look really, really good. The Saddledome and McMahon are the worst or amongst the worst professional sports facilities in North America. Hard to call yourself a world class city when Winnipeg has sporting facilities that far surpass anything in Calgary.

These facilities are happening in every other major Canadian city so why do Calgarians not have any civic pride? Part of this is due to all the transplants that have come here to make their money and bolt back east when they make their fortune and part of this is due to the extreme need of many in this city to own a house they can barely afford and lease BMWs to look the part that need every penny available to keep up with the Joneses. Well I want the transplants to contribute to this city before they take their money and run and since I plan on sticking around I have no qualms with contributing to keeping this city world class.

Just remember it's not Calgary's right to have an NHL franchise, it's a privilege. You tell the Flames owners to stick it and they may tell you to stick it and sell the team.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by karl262

As for the building being worthless once it reaches the end of its life cycle, its absolutely true. When a new building is completed it will attract all of the concerts and special events on top of the Flames, Roughnecks and Hitmen games. With no events being held in the Saddledome it is a money loser and therefore worthless. It will be torn down soon after a new arena is built.

Referring to the link quoted in your post, I didn't know operating income was so low (1.1 mill), and I tried to google something to prove you wrong and got nothing (other than a previous year of 4.4 mill or something, but that was post playoff run). I would argue the NHLPA argument that teams don't disclose their true financial situation, but that is unproven.

However, while that was one of my points, the other was the building isn't at the end of its life-cycle. If you build a new one, yes tear it down, but I am advocating not building a new one because the existing still works. I really don't understand how you didn't pick up on that when I don't want tax dollars being spent on a new arena

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Go to Edmonton, Montreal or Saskatoon and all of a sudden our roads look really, really good.

Went to school in Edmonton, drove their roads, and I don't consider them the minimum standard. Also, roads were just an example, if we want provincial funding, throw that money into mental health programs, therefore helping to clean up our streets and really help people.

These facilities are happening in every other major Canadian city so why do Calgarians not have any civic pride?

I don't consider the inside of a stadium the number one way to measure civic pride (I consider the outside of the 'reverse' saddledome nice). I am just as proud to be from Calgary as anyone I know, so much so I annoy friends.

Part of this is due to all the transplants that have come here to make their money and bolt back east when they make their fortune and part of this is due to the extreme need of many in this city to own a house they can barely afford and lease BMWs to look the part that need every penny available to keep up with the Joneses. Well I want the transplants to contribute to this city before they take their money and run and since I plan on sticking around I have no qualms with contributing to keeping this city world class.

Well being born (holy cross hospital) and raised in Calgary , only leaving for a university degree, I simply disagree. I plan on making my life here, and have my career here. All the 'transplants' I know and worked with love this city and want to make it better. This really makes no sense, the 'transplants' will pay whatever taxes they owe, if its spent on a stadium or an LRT line, it really has no bearing on they amount of taxes they pay....This made no sense at all.

As for the need to own a BMW to look the part, how is spending money on long term city infrastructure instead of a new sports stadium not exactly opposite of what you are advocating, and not supporting my argument? I just don't think this entire paragraph really had any relevance here.

Just remember it's not Calgary's right to have an NHL franchise, it's a privilege. You tell the Flames owners to stick it and they may tell you to stick it and sell the team.

Karl's link proved it, owing a NHL franchise in a profitable city isn't a right either, the owners can 'stick it' for another ten years before we have this discussion, the team isn't moving anywhere. I think we have great owners, and again, don't blame them for trying for free money, but I am not willing to hand it out yet.

[calgaryboy]

Originally Posted by FlyingDonutz

We should just renovate the saddledome.. It's easily the best looking arena in the NHL.

I love Saddledome, don ´t want a new arena anytime anywhere. Just do this or that in Sadledome and keep it. Saddledome is a wonderful place!

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by calgaryboy

I love Saddledome, don ´t want a new arena anytime anywhere. Just do this or that in Sadledome and keep it. Saddledome is a wonderful place!

The sight lines aren't very good, the concourse is terrible, going to the washroom is a chore, acoustics suck, and big concerts skip the city because of the roof. It's wonderful to have a pro team but the facilities are lacking big time.

[Bingo]

these discussions get so polar ... crazy

if I'm an owner in Calgary I'd look around at what's planned in Edmonton, what the federal government is thinking in Quebec city, what happened in Winnipeg, and a quick canvas of what's gone on down south.

Should they get money? Not up to me to decide, but if everyone else is getting it they have a right to a similar deal

The Flames ownership group have been great civic partners for 0ver 30 years with an amazing track record of contributing to things like the hospice, minor hockey, and I'm sure 1000 other Calgary issues.

To just paint the "they aint getting my money" brush is a little unfair in my mind.

Has to be looked into, and find what's fair

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Bingo

these discussions get so polar ... crazy

if I'm an owner in Calgary I'd look around at what's planned in Edmonton, what the federal government is thinking in Quebec city, what happened in Winnipeg, and a quick canvas of what's gone on down south.

Should they get money? Not up to me to decide, but if everyone else is getting it they have a right to a similar deal

The Flames ownership group have been great civic partners for 0ver 30 years with an amazing track record of contributing to things like the hospice, minor hockey, and I'm sure 1000 other Calgary issues.

To just paint the "they aint getting my money" brush is a little unfair in my mind.

Has to be looked into, and find what's fair

Since my points are now well documented, and I have hijacked this thread, I will just say I completely respectively disagree.