Warning: Transit Fines $250 Starting Today

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Why don't they do what most normal cities do and install turnstyles to get on / off the train?

Most normal cities have their train systems underground as well.

[Russic]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

They can charge whatever they want, all its going to do is increase the fine revenue they collect. Until they actually do a better job of enforcing by actually having the transit cops checking tickets more frequently, people are still going to do it. Its been 6 months straight of riding the train for me, still only seen 1 officer. Doing the math at $2.75 a ride 40 times a month (2 rides/day), thats $660 in rides paid. If you skip paying, you have to get caught 3 times and you're still only down $90 if you do. I think a lot of people will still continue to skip on the fares because its still a worthwhile risk. Enforce it better and then I think you'd see more fare revenue collected.

I had a different experience. I rode for 2 years and found that I was checked just over once per month. At that rate it wouldn't end up being worth it. Perhaps we just ride at different times.

[Yanda]

I saved $3000 over 3 years by not buying a ticket. This was put in effect because of people like me.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Russic

I had a different experience. I rode for 2 years and found that I was checked just over once per month. At that rate it wouldn't end up being worth it. Perhaps we just ride at different times.

I have taken the c train about 20 times total in my life, always paid, never got checked. Then the 21st time, I was living in Sunnyside, was going to walk downtown to meet a girl for lunch, but was running late. I saw a train coming, and I ran up to pay my fair, I was a quarter short, so thought screw it, only one stop to the free fare zone and of course I get busted.

[AR_Six]

I would note that when they do check fares it's pretty obvious they're going to. Oh hey, a couple of transit cops standing on the station waiting to board. Fantastic, guess I'll buy a ticket, says the guy who hasn't bought one in 3 months. I've seen that twice.

That being said, how fast would you need to be speeding to get a $250 ticket? That's my issue here; it's unduly punitive, taken in context. As a deterrent, this is way out of whack with most traffic fines and it's aimed at people who take the train, which is a) a practice we should be encouraging and b) a group of people who by and large have less money than those of us with cars to drive. If they want to increase revenue for transit, bump up the cost of traffic violations and funnel some of the resulting revenue over to the transit system.

[JD]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

That being said, how fast would you need to be speeding to get a $250 ticket? That's my issue here; it's unduly punitive, taken in context.

How is it unduly punitive? People have already shown that it might not be punitive enough!

The point isn't to punish anyway. It's to encourage people to actually buy a ticket. And that's the thing.... if you buy a ticket, you won't get punished! The fine could be a million bucks and it's still easy enough to avoid.

[ThisYear]

There's a transit system in Calgary?

[Russic]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

I would note that when they do check fares it's pretty obvious they're going to. Oh hey, a couple of transit cops standing on the station waiting to board. Fantastic, guess I'll buy a ticket, says the guy who hasn't bought one in 3 months. I've seen that twice.

That being said, how fast would you need to be speeding to get a $250 ticket? That's my issue here; it's unduly punitive, taken in context. As a deterrent, this is way out of whack with most traffic fines and it's aimed at people who take the train, which is a) a practice we should be encouraging and b) a group of people who by and large have less money than those of us with cars to drive. If they want to increase revenue for transit, bump up the cost of traffic violations and funnel some of the resulting revenue over to the transit system.

I guess it's a good thing this is a 100% voluntary tax then.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

As a deterrent, this is way out of whack with most traffic fines

Stunting, which is a HUGE umbrella (donoughts, waving flags from cars, warning traffic of upcoming photo radar, whatever else the officer would like), is over $400. The Calgary noise by-law is $270. Don't forget traffic tickets carry demerits as well.

Originally Posted by AR_Six

I would note that when they do check fares it's pretty obvious they're going to. Oh hey, a couple of transit cops standing on the station waiting to board. Fantastic, guess I'll buy a ticket, says the guy who hasn't bought one in 3 months. I've seen that twice.

That being said, how fast would you need to be speeding to get a $250 ticket? That's my issue here; it's unduly punitive, taken in context. As a deterrent, this is way out of whack with most traffic fines and it's aimed at people who take the train, which is a) a practice we should be encouraging and b) a group of people who by and large have less money than those of us with cars to drive. If they want to increase revenue for transit, bump up the cost of traffic violations and funnel some of the resulting revenue over to the transit system.

About 40km over. I get that the human safety consequences are way higher for someone speeding vs skipping transit fare.

But you want a group who may or may not ever use public transit to subsidize those who do, because they may have a higher income, and because everybody should be using transit?

Why stop there? Parking longer than 2 hours in a 2 hour zone isn't going to kill anybody. Make parking tickets just a warning and increase fines for reckless driving. Make all those reckless drivers pay for new parkades. Drunk driving is worse than speeding. Lower speeding tickets and Make the fines for a DUI in the $100,000 Murder is way worse than speeding. Fine murderer's millions and abolish income tax!

(obviously a bit of hyperbole in those examples...)

[Ruttiger]

Originally Posted by ThisYear

There's a transit system in Calgary?

Oohhhhh - that's witty!

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by kunkstyle

Stunting, which is a HUGE umbrella (donoughts, waving flags from cars, warning traffic of upcoming photo radar, whatever else the officer would like), is over $400.

Works for me. Could be higher. Though warning traffic of upcoming radar is kind of a ridiculous thing to equate with doing doughnuts with your car. If it's actual "stunting", i.e. doing stunts with a motor vehicle, why shouldn't that be a significant fine?

About 40km over. I get that the human safety consequences are way higher for someone speeding vs skipping transit fare.

But you want a group who may or may not ever use public transit to subsidize those who do, because they may have a higher income, and because everybody should be using transit?

Why stop there? Parking longer than 2 hours in a 2 hour zone isn't going to kill anybody. Make parking tickets just a warning and increase fines for reckless driving. Make all those reckless drivers pay for new parkades. Drunk driving is worse than speeding. Lower speeding tickets and Make the fines for a DUI in the $100,000.

Well, first, I would have no issue with a $100,000 fine for drunk driving simply because ridiculous deterrents that keep people from doing that altogether are a-ok by me. You may even be able to feasibly collect that amount over a number of years.

Second, yes, I do want people who don't use a service to subsidize those who do if the former behaviour is one we wish to strongly discourage and the subsidized behaviour is one we want to encourage. We do this tax-burden-shifting in plenty of other areas. You already subsidize behaviour you don't participate in but that the government thinks should be encouraged via tax breaks. If you have a higher income, you subsidize those things to a greater degree. Is this at all surprising to you?

As for it being a voluntary tax, so is basically every fine - i.e., voluntarily abstain from whatever it is they're fining you for, and don't pay the tax. I'm just saying that the fact that your average speeding ticked is probably half of what you pay for riding a train without a pass seems odd to me in that the two should intuitively be reversed.

[Yasa]

I had a warrant for an unpaid transit ticket once. I went on the lamb and changed my identity. Never looked back.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Yasa

. I went on the lamb

Pedophilia AND beastiality. You, sir, make me ill.

[jammies]

Note - don't try to look up the correct spelling of beastiality at work.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by jammies

Pedophilia AND beastiality. You, sir, make me ill.

Sick with jealousy?

[jammies]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Sick with jealousy?

I do have Scottish family connections, so I'm not sure if I can plausibly deny the attraction to sheep. And I used to be a Catholic altar boy...

[Yasa]

Originally Posted by jammies

Pedophilia AND beastiality. You, sir, make me ill.

I said I went on the lamb, not in the lamb. That happened later.

[frinkprof]

Beyond a certain point, increased fare enforcement costs more than the fares that would be recouped by doing so. The Calgary Transit organization would be better able to say what that point is, but I'd imagine that we are close to it now. The marginal cost of increased fare enforcement, whatever form it takes, is high compared to the cost that fare evaders place on the system, which is low. Labour is expensive. At a certain point some people will be dissuaded from evading fare and the rest will just do so anyway, and the costs of doing more enforcement just won't see much return (law of diminishing returns).

Making the LRT system "closed" is also likely not in the offing. Turnstiles and other such devices would, on a functional basis only, probably get fare evasion numbers down. However, people still evade fare on systems that use turnstiles. They have to be a little more inventive about it, but still do. On an implementation basis, the way many stations are designed in Calgary doesn't lend itself to putting in turnstiles. Think of walk-on centre-load stations such as McKnight-Westwinds and Somerset-Bridlewood, or staggered side-load platforms like Shawnessy Station and the future Martindale Station.

Turnstiles might be able to be installed, but at the expense of pedestrian and train flow, and in some cases safety. Turnstiles can also not replace officers. There needs to be a human presence for safety and security reasons. This is without mentioning the capital cost of installation, and the operational costs of turnstile equipment.

Of course, this is viewing the topic of transit peace officers in the context of their value in enforcing fare payment. It does not take into account any value that would be placed on an authority presence's role in increasing real or perceived public safety and security.

[GGG]

The reasons the fair evasion needs to be raised is that it is a simple cost benefit analysis to decide if you should pay or not. I think $500 would put it outside of most peoples reach. And they finally take credit cards at stations so if you don't have change you don't have to risk it so their isn't really an excuse anymore.

I do think that fair enforcement provides more benefit then just the revenue. By putting officers on trains you improve general security and definately the feeling of safety. And safety is always one of the cited reasons for not taking transit. So if by increasing fair enforcement there is a marginal cost increase then that is probably okay as it is subsidizing increased security.

[Rathji]

I think if Calgary transit made a concentrated effort to man one station in the evening rush for a couple hours every day on a continuous basis, you could check everyone once every 5-6 weeks, maybe disregarding or putting a lower priority on stations where checking would be a large pain due to many entrances, like Sunnyside.

You could probably use fair-evasion stats from them to focus efforts on places that are yielding more results. Like maybe deep south is better than 39th through Vic Park for example.

Maybe it is asking too much for the staffing though.