Syria shoots down Turkish jet

[FurnaceFace]

It's threads like this where I really miss CC...

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Haha, are you serious?

I was referring to an armed conflict or open war. Most of the European members of NATO have stated they are not interested in any armed intervention including Dutch, Germans, etc. NATO requires consensus for any article five action and that's not going to happen at least for now, but looks more likely than before.

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

NATO along with the west-friendly oil monarchies (Qatar, Saudi Arabis) are arming and funding the Syrian "rebels" to slaughter civilians in Syria for the purpose of destabilizing the regime and creating petext for a NATO no fly zone/invasion.

Right.... and Assad didn't kill any of those 15-20 thousand odd protestors/civilians or shell any cities first. Those Rebels must have just killed all those civilians by themselves while Assad stood by.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Right.... and Assad didn't kill any of those 15-20 thousand odd protestors/civilians or shell any cities first. Those Rebels must have just killed all those civilians by themselves while Assad stood by.

With the U.S. and NATO breathing down Syria's neck looking for a pretext for military action, it serves Assad zero strategic advantage to kill unarmed civilians.

There has been western sponsored terrorism going on in Syria from the very start. While I am sure Assad's troops have caused civilian casualties caught in the crossfire, it is inaccurate to say he is targeting protestors for slaughter. Those claims are mostly war propaganda. There is more lying going on here than with Libya. The Houla massacre was pulled off by the Syrian opposition as well.

Yeah, some NATO member politicians may give some anti-war lip service but if NATO won't attack on behalf of the U.N., then America will do it alone. The neocons in the U.S. government have labeled Syria as part of the "axis of evil" targeted for regime change for many years now (early 90's).

It is not a matter of "if" regime change occurs in Syria, but "when" it will happen.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

With the U.S. and NATO breathing down Syria's neck looking for a pretext for military action, it serves Assad zero strategic advantage to kill unarmed civilians.

There has been western sponsored terrorism going on in Syria from the very start. While I am sure Assad's troops have caused civilian casualties caught in the crossfire, it is inaccurate to say he is targeting protestors for slaughter. Those claims are mostly war propaganda. There is more lying going on here than with Libya. The Houla massacre was pulled off by the Syrian opposition as well.

Yeah, some NATO member politicians may give some anti-war lip service but if NATO won't attack on behalf of the U.N., then America will do it alone. The neocons in the U.S. government have labeled Syria as part of the "axis of evil" targeted for regime change for many years now (early 90's).

It is not a matter of "if" regime change occurs in Syria, but "when" it will happen.

Provide evidence backing up this claim, otherwise don't state it as inaccurate. Attacks by Syria's militia, Shabiha, raised mostly from Assad's Alawite sect, on civilians and the family members of protesters, rebels, and defectors are fairly well documented; not just in this civil war, but well before. Using government equipped thugs to inspire fear in the local populace is a common tactic of Middle-Eastern dictatorships. The instance of the Syrian army opening fire across the Turkish border into a refugee camp is also well documented. It is hilarious how you claim the West is doing everything they can to foster the "slaughter of civilians," yet, judging from the above quote, you believe Assad, a dictator responsible for atrocities in the past, only kills people due to innocent crossfire.

Also, explain how getting their own jet shot down is a provocation?

Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc also said for the first time that Syrian forces had opened ground fire on a CASA search and rescue plane shortly after the downing, but did not say if that plane was hit.

Mr. Arinc said Turkey retained its right to “retaliate” against what he called a “hostile act,” but he added, “We have no intention of going at war with anyone.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...28/?cmpid=rss1

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Haha, are you serious?

Turkey is a NATO member.

NATO is helping the "Free Syrian Army" train in Turkey along the Turkey/Syria border....this invlolves U.S./British special forces/intellegence agencies etc.

NATO along with the west-friendly oil monarchies (Qatar, Saudi Arabis) are arming and funding the Syrian "rebels" to slaughter civilians in Syria for the purpose of destabilizing the regime and creating petext for a NATO no fly zone/invasion.

Syrian regime change has been on the American/NATO agenda for a long time now.

This jet being shot down is a provocatiopn on behalf of NATO, nothing more. I suggest Turkey should keep their jets out of the air space of its sovereign neghbors.

Provide some factual evidence for this. A reference -- something. I've read that it's believed a select number of Western nations are supplying and assisting Syrian rebels, but I have never heard anything of the NATO alliance itself contributing or being involved.

So, again, reference.

[seattleflamer]

The plot thickens (or in Mikey's case the conspiracy):
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/26/world/middleeast/syrian-military-defections-re

In a new twist, Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc of Turkey also accused the Syrians of shooting at a second Turkish plane — a search-and-rescue aircraft deployed to look for the downed warplane when it was hit last Friday off the Mediterranean coast, Turkey's Anatolian News Agency reported. Mr. Arinc did not specify where that incident happened but that Turkish officials had contacted the Syrians afterward and "this assault was immediately halted."

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Provide evidence backing up this claim, otherwise don't state it as inaccurate. Attacks by Syria's militia, Shabiha, raised mostly from Assad's Alawite sect, on civilians and the family members of protesters, rebels, and defectors are fairly well documented; not just in this civil war, but well before. Using government equipped thugs to inspire fear in the local populace is a common tactic of Middle-Eastern dictatorships. The instance of the Syrian army opening fire across the Turkish border into a refugee camp is also well documented. It is hilarious how you claim the West is doing everything they can to foster the "slaughter of civilians," yet, judging from the above quote, you believe Assad, a dictator responsible for atrocities in the past, only kills people due to innocent crossfire.

Also, explain how getting their own jet shot down is a provocation?



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...28/?cmpid=rss1

The Turkish jet encroached in Syrian air space to provoke a response. Predictibably the western media has framed Syria as the bad guy.

This is my post from another Syria thread here....

Okay......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ion-group.html

"Abdulhakim Belhadj, head of the Tripoli Military Council and the former leader of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, "met with Free Syrian Army leaders in Istanbul and on the border with Turkey," said a military official working with Mr Belhadj. "Mustafa Abdul Jalil (the interim Libyan president) sent him there."

LIFG = terror group affiliated with Al Qaeda

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/NB04Ak01.html

"When the over 160 monitors, after one month of enquiries, issued their report ... surprise! The report did not follow the official GCC line - which is that the "evil" Bashar al-Assad government is indiscriminately, and unilaterally, killing its own people, and so regime change is in order."


The Arab League's Ministerial Committee had approved the report, with four votes in favor (Algeria, Egypt, Sudan and GCC member Oman) and only one against; guess who, Qatar - which is now presiding the Arab League because the emirate bought their (rotating) turn from the Palestinian Authority.

"So the report was either ignored (by Western corporate media) or mercilessly destroyed - by Arab media, virtually all of it financed by either the House of Saud or Qatar. It was not even discussed - because it was prevented by the GCC from being translated from Arabic into English and published in the Arab League's website."

"The report is adamant. There was no organized, lethal repression by the Syrian government against peaceful protesters. Instead, the report points to shady armed gangs as responsible for hundreds of deaths among Syrian civilians, and over one thousand among the Syrian army, using lethal tactics such as bombing of civilian buses, bombing of trains carrying diesel oil, bombing of police buses and bombing of bridges and pipelines."

"The Syrian National Council is essentially a Muslim Brotherhood outfit affiliated with both the House of Saud and Qatar - with an uneasy Israel quietly supporting it in the background. Legitimacy is not exactly its cup of green tea. As for the Free Syrian Army, it does have its defectors, and well-meaning opponents of the Assad regime, but most of all is infested with these foreign mercenaries weaponized by the GCC, especially Salafist gangs."

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Provide some factual evidence for this. A reference -- something. I've read that it's believed a select number of Western nations are supplying and assisting Syrian rebels, but I have never heard anything of the NATO alliance itself contributing or being involved.

So, again, reference.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...an-rebels.html

"At the meeting, which was held in Istanbul and included Turkish officials, the Syrians requested "assistance" from the Libyan representatives and were offered arms, and potentially volunteers.
"There is something being planned to send weapons and even Libyan fighters to Syria," said a Libyan source, speaking on condition of anonymity. "There is a military intervention on the way. Within a few weeks you will see."

The Telegraph has also learned that preliminary discussions about arms supplies took place when members of the Syrian National Council [SNC] – the country's main opposition movement – visited Libya earlier this month."


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=29765

-Prof. Chossudovsky

"There’s ample evidence from official statements, from the Arab League observer mission, from the Israeli media, that there are terrorist organizations involved in killing civilians and this, in a very cynical mode, provides the justification for the so-called international community to blame Bashar al-Assad when in fact these civilian casualties were ordered by foreign forces.

It is what is called in intelligence parlance and I quote from the Pentagon, “a mass civilian casualty event” which “creates a useful wave of indignation”.

This last wave of killings is the result of armed gunmen, terrorists, mercenaries and in a very casual way it is then blamed on the Syrian government. I am not suggesting that the Syrian government doesn’t bear responsibility in this matter, but we must understand what are the underlying causes of this so-called protest movement.

We have Special Forces from Qatar; from Britain; from the US; from France, on the ground. And I quote from British military sources. The MI6, CIA, SAS and what are they doing? They’re training members of the Free Syrian Army."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=29715

"The United Nations Security Council held on Monday a session to discuss the situation in the Middle East in the framework of the attempts of some Arab states backed by the west to internationalize the crisis in Syria and ignore what is happening in the occupied Palestinian territories.
Russian Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, stressed in a speech at the UNSC that the Syrian Government is confronting armed gangs and al-Qaeda members who committed horrible crimes in Syria, adding that violence should stop and humanitarian aid should be offered to civilians."

[mikey_the_redneck]

...and more


http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/...aggerated.html

"Initially, the report noted general cooperation by the Syrian government:

The Mission [i.e. the Arab League investigative team] noted that the Government strived to help it succeed in its task and remove any barriers that might stand in its way. The Government also facilitated meetings with all parties. No restrictions were placed on the movement of the Mission and its ability to interview Syrian citizens, both those who opposed the Government and those loyal to it.

The report noted that the media has greatly exaggerated the amount of violence in Syria:

The Mission noted that many parties falsely reported that explosions or violence had occurred in several locations. When the observers went to those locations, they found that those reports were unfounded.
The Mission also noted that, according to its teams in the field, the media exaggerated the nature of the incidents and the number of persons killed in incidents and protests in certain towns."


While the government has not withdrawn all of its forces, the military has withdrawn from many areas:

Based on the reports of the field-team leaders and the meeting held on 17 January 2012 with all team leaders, the Mission confirmed that all military vehicles, tanks and heavy weapons had been withdrawn from cities and residential neighbourhoods. Although there are still some security measures in place in the form of earthen berms and barriers in front of important buildings and in squares, they do not affect citizens.

Perhaps most importantly, the report notes that the Syrian people do not want foreign intervention:

However, the citizens believe the crisis should be resolved peacefully through Arab
mediation alone, without international intervention. Doing so would allow them to live in peace and complete the reform process and bring about the change they desire."


Well ......THAT doesn't follow western narrative now does it??

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...an-rebels.html

"At the meeting, which was held in Istanbul and included Turkish officials, the Syrians requested "assistance" from the Libyan representatives and were offered arms, and potentially volunteers.
"There is something being planned to send weapons and even Libyan fighters to Syria," said a Libyan source, speaking on condition of anonymity. "There is a military intervention on the way. Within a few weeks you will see."

The Telegraph has also learned that preliminary discussions about arms supplies took place when members of the Syrian National Council [SNC] – the country's main opposition movement – visited Libya earlier this month."


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=29765

-Prof. Chossudovsky

"There’s ample evidence from official statements, from the Arab League observer mission, from the Israeli media, that there are terrorist organizations involved in killing civilians and this, in a very cynical mode, provides the justification for the so-called international community to blame Bashar al-Assad when in fact these civilian casualties were ordered by foreign forces.

It is what is called in intelligence parlance and I quote from the Pentagon, “a mass civilian casualty event” which “creates a useful wave of indignation”.

This last wave of killings is the result of armed gunmen, terrorists, mercenaries and in a very casual way it is then blamed on the Syrian government. I am not suggesting that the Syrian government doesn’t bear responsibility in this matter, but we must understand what are the underlying causes of this so-called protest movement.

We have Special Forces from Qatar; from Britain; from the US; from France, on the ground. And I quote from British military sources. The MI6, CIA, SAS and what are they doing? They’re training members of the Free Syrian Army."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=29715

"The United Nations Security Council held on Monday a session to discuss the situation in the Middle East in the framework of the attempts of some Arab states backed by the west to internationalize the crisis in Syria and ignore what is happening in the occupied Palestinian territories.
Russian Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, stressed in a speech at the UNSC that the Syrian Government is confronting armed gangs and al-Qaeda members who committed horrible crimes in Syria, adding that violence should stop and humanitarian aid should be offered to civilians."

How does any of this point to NATO involvement? All it does is reiterate what I just said -- select Western nations are involved, but not NATO.

So, again, provide a legit reference indicating NATO involvement (not the joke that is globalresearch.ca, but even there none of your links indicated NATO involvement.) You were the one to say it.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

The Turkish jet encroached in Syrian air space to provoke a response. Predictibably the western media has framed Syria as the bad guy.

This is my post form another Syria thread here....

Okay......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ion-group.html

"Abdulhakim Belhadj, head of the Tripoli Military Council and the former leader of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, "met with Free Syrian Army leaders in Istanbul and on the border with Turkey," said a military official working with Mr Belhadj. "Mustafa Abdul Jalil (the interim Libyan president) sent him there."

LIFG = terror group affiliated with Al Qaeda

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/NB04Ak01.html

"When the over 160 monitors, after one month of enquiries, issued their report ... surprise! The report did not follow the official GCC line - which is that the "evil" Bashar al-Assad government is indiscriminately, and unilaterally, killing its own people, and so regime change is in order."


The Arab League's Ministerial Committee had approved the report, with four votes in favor (Algeria, Egypt, Sudan and GCC member Oman) and only one against; guess who, Qatar - which is now presiding the Arab League because the emirate bought their (rotating) turn from the Palestinian Authority.

"So the report was either ignored (by Western corporate media) or mercilessly destroyed - by Arab media, virtually all of it financed by either the House of Saud or Qatar. It was not even discussed - because it was prevented by the GCC from being translated from Arabic into English and published in the Arab League's website."

"The report is adamant. There was no organized, lethal repression by the Syrian government against peaceful protesters. Instead, the report points to shady armed gangs as responsible for hundreds of deaths among Syrian civilians, and over one thousand among the Syrian army, using lethal tactics such as bombing of civilian buses, bombing of trains carrying diesel oil, bombing of police buses and bombing of bridges and pipelines."

"The Syrian National Council is essentially a Muslim Brotherhood outfit affiliated with both the House of Saud and Qatar - with an uneasy Israel quietly supporting it in the background. Legitimacy is not exactly its cup of green tea. As for the Free Syrian Army, it does have its defectors, and well-meaning opponents of the Assad regime, but most of all is infested with these foreign mercenaries weaponized by the GCC, especially Salafist gangs."

You ignore the man that headed that failed mission, and the contradictions that he reported. Al Dabi claimed tensions were easing, while both the Syrian government and the rebels were claiming they were escalating. Al Dabi himself is suspected of war crimes in Darfur (he is suspected of creating the janjaweed), and it is no real surprise that he may sympathize with an authoritarian government over perceived rebels. The man was not a neutral observer. You would think, if the GCC were conspiring behind the scenes, or were in the least bit competent, they wouldn't elect a man that headed an oppressive regime in Africa to sympathize with rebels and protesters.

That mission was a joke from the very beginning. It was no surprise it failed.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

How does any of this point to NATO involvement? All it does is reiterate what I just said -- select Western nations are involved, but not NATO.

So, again, provide a legit reference indicating NATO involvement (not the joke that is globalresearch.ca, but even there none of your links indicated NATO involvement.) You were the one to say it.

Turkey is a NATO member.

The Syrian National Council is based in Turkey and France (another NATO member).

Who is going to carry out a no-fly-zone or military buffer zone down the road? NATO. They are the UN's military. Turkey will be consulting with NATO over what to do about their F4 being shot down in Syria the other day.

Think of NATO and the GCC as partners as the article says. The GCC is giving the FSA arms, while Turkey, the U.S. etc. provides finance and "communications" assistance.

This is Libya 2.0
You're right though ...its not NATO....


Anyways, if anyone else is interested, here is an article about the Houla massacre.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...john-rosenthal

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

The man was not a neutral observer. You would think, if the GCC were conspiring behind the scenes, or were in the least bit competent, they wouldn't elect a man that headed an oppressive regime in Africa to sympathize with rebels and protesters.

Then why did the GCC select him at all?

It is clear that Qatar and Saudi Arabia (dominant GCC members) are supporting the FSA with weapons.....they have chosen sides already. Why didn't they send in someone who could paint a darker picture for the war mongering west to sell to the public?

You act like it was a one man observer report. There were 160 members, and 5 voting nations that voted 4-1. Interestingly Qatar was the only nation to not approve of the Syrian observer report....which shed the Assad regime in a more positive light.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

It's threads like this where I really miss CC...

where did captin Crunch go?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Here is a military news site hinting that British special forces "may" be training FSA on Turkish bases.

http://www.eliteukforces.info/uk-mil...rces-syria.php

Here's the NY Times talking about how the CIA is helping the Syrian opposition in Turkey. Of course it's filled with spin and other inaccuracies...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/wo...pagewanted=all

"A small number of C.I.A. officers are operating secretly in southern Turkey, helping allies decide which Syrian opposition fighters across the border will receive arms to fight the Syrian government, according to American officials and Arab intelligence officers."

"The weapons, including automatic rifles, rocket-propelled grenades, ammunition and some antitank weapons, are being funneled mostly across the Turkish border by way of a shadowy network of intermediaries including Syria’s Muslim Brotherhood and paid for by Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, the officials said."

"American officials and retired C.I.A. officials said the administration was also weighing additional assistance to rebels, like providing satellite imagery and other detailed intelligence on Syrian troop locations and movements."

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Turkey is a NATO member.

The Syrian National Council is based in Turkey and France (another NATO member).

Who is going to carry out a no-fly-zone or military buffer zone down the road? NATO. They are the UN's military. Turkey will be consulting with NATO over what to do about their F4 being shot down in Syria the other day.

Think of NATO and the GCC as partners as the article says. The GCC is giving the FSA arms, while Turkey, the U.S. etc. provides finance and "communications" assistance.

This is Libya 2.0
You're right though ...its not NATO....


Anyways, if anyone else is interested, here is an article about the Houla massacre.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...john-rosenthal

Just because Turkey is a NATO member doesn't mean anything. Nations are still able to operate militarily independent of the alliance, especially when a number of members of the alliance want nothing to do with another war in the Middle-East. Do you consider Syria conspiring with the Arab League in its civil war simply because it's also a member of that group?

This is not Libya 2.0. In Libya, NATO had a mandate from the UN, and unanimous approval from the Arab League. This is not likely to happen in this situation.

So, I'm still waiting for that reference piece. One that actually mentions NATO is involved in this. And, please, reference a website besides one that feeds your conspiratorial fantasies like globalresearch.ca. And especially not articles from Prof. Chossudovsky, one of this nation's nuttiest professors, and a 9/11 truther.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Then why did the GCC select him at all?

It is clear that Qatar and Saudi Arabia (dominant GCC members) are supporting the FSA with weapons.....they have chosen sides already. Why didn't they send in someone who could paint a darker picture for the war mongering west to sell to the public?

You act like it was a one man observer report. There were 160 members, and 5 voting nations that voted 4-1. Interestingly Qatar was the only nation to not approve of the Syrian observer report....which shed the Assad regime in a more positive light.

I don't know why. Unlike you, I don't make assumptions and then presume them to be fact.

My guess would be because there is no conspiracy. If there was, like you seem to believe, then, yes, you would think they would send someone else in to Syria, wouldn't you? Perhaps you, the one claiming the GCC is doing everything they can to destroy Assad and Syria, should explain why they didn't have a puppet they could control leading the mission? Is this not evidence of the lack of conspiracy?

My guess as to why Al Dabi was sent to Syria is that the GCC is run by dictators out of touch with their own populations, is rather incompetent, has little to no experience in organizing monitoring missions, and has no one else to blame but the GCC itself for the failure.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Here is a military news site hinting that British special forces "may" be training FSA on Turkish bases.

http://www.eliteukforces.info/uk-mil...rces-syria.php

Here's the NY Times talking about how the CIA is helping the Syrian opposition in Turkey. Of course it's filled with spin and other inaccuracies...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/wo...pagewanted=all

"A small number of C.I.A. officers are operating secretly in southern Turkey, helping allies decide which Syrian opposition fighters across the border will receive arms to fight the Syrian government, according to American officials and Arab intelligence officers."

"The weapons, including automatic rifles, rocket-propelled grenades, ammunition and some antitank weapons, are being funneled mostly across the Turkish border by way of a shadowy network of intermediaries including Syria’s Muslim Brotherhood and paid for by Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, the officials said."

"American officials and retired C.I.A. officials said the administration was also weighing additional assistance to rebels, like providing satellite imagery and other detailed intelligence on Syrian troop locations and movements."

It would be foolish to think they're not being trained in Turkey.

This has nothing to do with NATO, however.

And I'm not sure to find it hilarious or sad that you comment on the "spin" of the NY Times while you make a habit of quoting globalresearch.ca articles.

[PIMking]

Mikeytheconspiracytheorist

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by PIMking

Mikeytheconspiracytheorist

There is little to no doubt that select Western forces and a couple of the Arab states are aiding Syrian rebels by supplying them with small-arms and training in Turkey.

However, the idea that Assad, a man with a history of oppression, only injures his own civilians in cross-fire while the West looks to slaughter them (laughable), that somehow because Libya tried to export their own armed fighters to Syria that somehow makes the West complicit, that just because a handful of Western nations are taking a pro-active role in the civil war the entire NATO alliance must be organizationally involved, and that an observer mission ordered by a bunch of dictators and headed by a man likely guilty of war crimes in Darfur failed is indication of a conspiracy, is just par for the course for someone with one of the largest confirmation biases I've ever seen on CP.