Best GM dealer in Cowtown?

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by nfotiu+Jun 15 2005, 09:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nfotiu @ Jun 15 2005, 09:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hulkrogan@Jun 15 2005, 02:54 PM
To back up some points made in this thread:

Sonota was named one of the best cars produced as far as quality in JD Powers last survey. Hyundai just suffers from a bad reputation they earned years ago.

That said, GM was the #2 manufacturer in terms of quality behind Toyota. They also suffer from a bad rep they earned by building shinguardty cars in the past.

That quality survey is just based on initial quality, correct? Basically just little things breaking or coming shipped broken that get fixed under warranty.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe GM still does pretty poorly in the long term reliability surveys. [/b][/quote]
I don't know the answer one way or the other, but I think the best place to find it would be the latest Lemon-Aid book.

A great resource for car shoppers because he breaks the info down by model - and seems to hate everyone equally

[Bill Bumface]

Originally posted by nfotiu+Jun 15 2005, 10:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nfotiu @ Jun 15 2005, 10:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hulkrogan@Jun 15 2005, 02:54 PM
To back up some points made in this thread:

Sonota was named one of the best cars produced as far as quality in JD Powers last survey. Hyundai just suffers from a bad reputation they earned years ago.

That said, GM was the #2 manufacturer in terms of quality behind Toyota. They also suffer from a bad rep they earned by building shinguardty cars in the past.

That quality survey is just based on initial quality, correct? Basically just little things breaking or coming shipped broken that get fixed under warranty.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe GM still does pretty poorly in the long term reliability surveys. [/b][/quote]
Correct, it is inital quality.

As for long term quality, you would likely be correct. Their powertrain lineup has had major updates in only the last 3/4 years. For instance the ECOTEC has come out being one of the best 4 cylinders available, in all of its forms. (2.2L, 2.0L T/C, 2.0L S/C, and soon 2.4 VVT). The 3400 is now finally being phased out, and engine that was plauged with Intake Manifold gasket leaks.

I could go on, but the reason you see GM doing so much better in those initial quality surveys is that their quality is getting better. They are leaning more on their international divisions (Opel/Saab etc) and its helping.

If my number one concerns were resale and build quality would I get a GM? Nope, toyota all the way.

[Incinerator]

Thanks for the heads up on Shaganappi guys, now I know where to stay away from haha...

[REDVAN]

I got my car last summer (2004 Pontiac Grand Am) at McKay. Great pries and so on. Have been in a few times for service and they are always on time, and do exactly what I ask them to. Since the care's under warranty they have replaced stuff instead of tinker around trying to fix it. So far much better than Tower Chrysler where I used to go all the time.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

I'm on board with Claeren here - Toyota by a landslide, but if you don't chose the Toyota you'll be fishing on the other end of the "quality pond" by omitting the Hondas, Nissans and Mazda's. And that's considering quality and resale.

As for me, I drive a Mazda Atenza here in Japan (though not very much now) and am surprised at how happy I am with it. I was going for another Honda at purchase when my sales guy at Mazdacame down almost $3000 in price to make it not even close in terms of budget - I guess it pays to shop around.

[Bill Bumface]

^ Mazda came second last on the JD Powers quality survey that just came out. Nissan was back up after a couple years of sucking ass.

People assume that Japanese=good, but really Its just Toyota, and to a lesser degree, Honda.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Well, since this is a getting a new car thread. I've been pondering over a new Ford Escape Hybrid the last two days. I really like the Escapes.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally posted by MrMastodonFarm@Jun 16 2005, 12:33 PM
Well, since this is a getting a new car thread. I've been pondering over a new Ford Escape Hybrid the last two days. I really like the Escapes.

Watch out for their CVT. Ford and GM I believe both have had massive issues with their CVT. GM pulled their CVT from production vehicles.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by MrMastodonFarm@Jun 16 2005, 11:33 AM
Well, since this is a getting a new car thread. I've been pondering over a new Ford Escape Hybrid the last two days. I really like the Escapes.

I had a little look into those when I was trying to convince the wife not to buy a minivan

The escapes and even the mazda trubites have gotten horrible quality and safety reviews.

I've also read that the hybrid is not nearly as fuel efficent as is claimed.

I don't know enough to say for sure I woudn't buy one, but based on what I've read you should probably be very diligent in your homework.

[Claeren]

Originally posted by hulkrogan@Jun 16 2005, 11:20 AM
^ Mazda came second last on the JD Powers quality survey that just came out. Nissan was back up after a couple years of sucking ass.

People assume that Japanese=good, but really Its just Toyota, and to a lesser degree, Honda.

Mazda was/is not japanese, it is domestic (Ford)

Thank god that Ford has, over the past ~5 years, allowed Mazda to become independent again (More Japanese). Since 1993 Ford just rebaged Fords as Mazda's and that was enough for them. Since Mazda became independent you have seen the Mazda 3, Mazda 6, RX-8, Mazdaspeed series, and Protege 5. Everything else was (and still is) Ford (B-series pick-ups, Tribute < Least reliable vehicles in their line-up, incidently.). Only the Miata was left alone, although it is just now getting a major revamp since its pre-1993 Mazda days.

With a more atuned corporate culture around Mazda you will see them slowly climb the quality latter. Their newest cars are already MUCH better then what they replace....


Claeren.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally posted by Claeren+Jun 16 2005, 03:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Claeren @ Jun 16 2005, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hulkrogan@Jun 16 2005, 11:20 AM
^ Mazda came second last on the JD Powers quality survey that just came out. Nissan was back up after a couple years of sucking ass.

People assume that Japanese=good, but really Its just Toyota, and to a lesser degree, Honda.

Mazda was/is not japanese, it is domestic (Ford)

Thank god that Ford has, over the past ~5 years, allowed Mazda to become independent again (More Japanese). Since 1993 Ford just rebaged Fords as Mazda's and that was enough for them. Since Mazda became independent you have seen the Mazda 3, Mazda 6, RX-8, Mazdaspeed series, and Protege 5. Everything else was (and still is) Ford (B-series pick-ups, Tribute < Least reliable vehicles in their line-up, incidently.). Only the Miata was left alone, although it is just now getting a major revamp since its pre-1993 Mazda days.

With a more atuned corporate culture around Mazda you will see them slowly climb the quality latter. Their newest cars are already MUCH better then what they replace....


Claeren. [/b][/quote]
The latest quality survey is only about a month old. It includes the 6, the 3 etc.

They were still 2nd last. Many JDM mazda's were ass in the past as well. Thats great that they are built in Japan now, but Japanese != quality.

[Claeren]

I have plenty of experience with Mazda's and have been heavily involved with the online Mazda community for almost a decade (<since it began, lol...) and thus hear a lot of peoples experiences. Their prime new cars are not perfect but they are not the worst either. I would put a '06 Mazda 3 against all but a handful of competitors products. Inversly. I have zero respect for the Tribute...

[nfotiu]

Consumer Reports has things slightly different take

The most reliable 2004 brand overall is now Subaru, which averages 8 problems per 100. Honda, long a reliability leader, averaged 9 problems per 100.

Japanese and Korean automakers once again produced the most trouble-free vehicles, with an overall problem rate of 12 per 100 for the 2004 model year. That rate has not changed in the past three years.

The most reliable 2004 brand overall is now Subaru, which averages 8 problems per 100. Honda, long a reliability leader, averaged 9 problems per 100.

Subaru showed significant improvement. This year, with just 8 problems per 100 cars, it had the best reliability record of any 2004 make. It suffered last year, largely because of the poor showing of its new Baja truck.

Honda, Toyota, and Acura were close behind Subaru this year. Lexus finished fourth, tied with Infiniti and Hyundai. But their overall problem rate of 11 per 100 is still enviable.

Nissan’s 2004 showing was disappointing because its new or redesigned models have had high problem rates. The redesigned 2004 Quest minivan and the Armada SUV were among the worst this year; the Titan pickup was better.

[Sylvanfan]

Initial quality surveys are somewhat over rated in the regard that any defects suffered in the first bit are under warrenty, and don't cost you money to replace. It is a pain in the ass when things are wrong with your new vehichle and the like, but I'd rather a couple problems early on, than have the thing start draining my account after it's off warrenty. Long term reliability is what you want, and re-sale factors into that. Toyota and Honda have great track records in this regard. The Camry is boring, but over the past 20 years it's probably got the best track record of any car on the market.

As for the Escape, my wife is bugging me about getting a SUV. I am not going to buy a brand new Escape, or Liberty or anything like that. For the price of those things I can get a very good used ML320, or Lexus, or Acura. All of which are better vehichles in my opinion even if used. Of course I'm biased towards Mercedes because my Dad owes his life to the safety of those vehichles two times over. When I'm looking for a main vehichle for my wife to use, and for us to take on trips safety is my number one concern.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally posted by Sylvanfan@Jun 16 2005, 06:12 PM
Initial quality surveys are somewhat over rated in the regard that any defects suffered in the first bit are under warrenty, and don't cost you money to replace. It is a pain in the ass when things are wrong with your new vehichle and the like, but I'd rather a couple problems early on, than have the thing start draining my account after it's off warrenty. Long term reliability is what you want, and re-sale factors into that. Toyota and Honda have great track records in this regard. The Camry is boring, but over the past 20 years it's probably got the best track record of any car on the market.

As for the Escape, my wife is bugging me about getting a SUV. I am not going to buy a brand new Escape, or Liberty or anything like that. For the price of those things I can get a very good used ML320, or Lexus, or Acura. All of which are better vehichles in my opinion even if used. Of course I'm biased towards Mercedes because my Dad owes his life to the safety of those vehichles two times over. When I'm looking for a main vehichle for my wife to use, and for us to take on trips safety is my number one concern.

M class mercedes are THE worst mercedes made for quality, I'd avoid them.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally posted by nfotiu@Jun 16 2005, 03:53 PM
Consumer Reports has things slightly different take

I don't see them sporting wood for mazda at all... and they also talk about how Nissan recently sucked ass. Both Subaru and Nissan have been up and down. Honda has been very solid, and Toyota has been rediculously good for years (including Lexus of course).

[Incinerator]

Hey everyone, quick update on my car shopping experience on Thursday:

Days starts off with me pawning off the old faithful Flamemobile™ for pocket change to an acquaintance, decommissioned and no longer a Flamemobile lol...

Anyways, my better half picks me up from the registry office and off to lunch we go, driving up Centre street and I see this Grey late model Intrepid decked out with 4, yes, count them FOUR Flames window car flags flying on each window...Giant graphics procliams "Go Flames" and HUGE Flaming Stallion on the hood. With a huge dent on the driver's side of the car. Almost sh*t my pants right there...15 minutes after I decommissioned the Flamemobile I learn that I have been outdone by a mile, and I thought all this time my car was the only Flamemobile in town since the lockout started...looks like I was wrong ;_; So fess up fellow CPers, which one of y'all owns that fine piece of art?

Ok, enough with that sad story onto car shopping...So I whip out my short list after lunch and the primary passenger of this new car inspects it and frown...and it completely goes out the window when she all but shot them down... Only sole survivor? You guessed it: Toyota Camry *groans*) I really wanted the Sonata...

So we take off and me being the hypocrite that I am (remember? Didn't want a Mazda) Since North Hill Mazda is just right in front of my nose, and remembering that Mango said they treated her well...thought I might as well do it. Went in, poked around a bit, told sales dood just shopping around today. Sales dood comes back after 10 minutes searching for the keys, and off we go in a Mazda 6 Hatchback.

I must admit, at first our primary goal was to seek a family sedan. But the Hatchback's cargo space did impress me, especially the express flip down rear seats...nice. So again, I'm such a hyprocrite...now I'm considering the Mazda 6 Sport Hatchback...styling still rubs me the wrong way a bit though, makes me feel like I'm 16 all over again Seats are more comfy than I expected (I was expecting tight sporty suspension)...6spd auto is fun, moreso than I thought it'd be...so overall...nice ride. I think I liked how thoughtful the test drive route was planned out than the car itself haha...

OK, done with that zoom-zoom thing. Off to Crowfoot Auto Mall...first stop: "Honey let's drive the TSX" Ok fine...memories of the EL I once had in high school come rushing back...boy was I young and stupid then, which is why I no longer have that car lol...Anyways. I actually do like the styling a lot...The trunk and backseat is pathetic for a "midsize" though. But whatever, I've always wanted to take one for a spin just for the hell of it. Got the keys...first thing I've noticed is how HARD the seats were. It hurt my back like hell in 15 minutes of driving. But other than that it was decent for a 4-banger. Test drive finished...OMG worst route ever, did not go on highway, back hurts like hell (I have a bad back, work related) seats were harder than the old Civic Sales guy was cool about it, suggested used TLs (had a bunch on the lot). MUCH BETTER seats. But I have my doubts buying someone else's castoffs, never bought used before.

Off to Toyota next door, finally something I had on my list originally Pretty straight forward place, walked in, guy comes out and do the whole walkthrough of the Camry's features before driving off...Floormats are reversible into All-season rubber mats! Very cool, love it. Took it down Crowchild and Stoney. Felt like I was playing a video game, zero road feel on the steering, but plush ride, exactly what I need...interior...did not impress, maybe it's just the base model demo. V6 sort of lack passing power...completely different animal than the Mazda6 and the TSX. Almost comfy enough to fall asleep on the wheel. Now I know why all of my parents' friends have a Toyota of some sort.

Test drive done, the guy gets overly excited after my pretty lady says "Honey I like the seats, sits taller than my Accord". Ok, the background check comes on in the cubicle even though I said I am definitely in the shopping around stage right now. So he prints me the "Access Toyota" Sticker-price gouging scheme info sheet. Actually the sticker did not shock me much...more horror to follow in the next drive...So after pushing free lifetime oil changes, $500 off Camrys this month, and grad rebates I find out later at home, online, that Grad rebate does not even apply to Camry. Whatever...

Next stop: Dinner, then off to Honda right next to Acura and Toyota. Yup you heard me, Honda...because she's a Honda fan too...Really dreading this one walking in (My gosh is that '05 Accord ever fugly). Surprisingly, a rather pleasant young man greeted us with more genuine enthusiasm than I have ever encountered in a car dealership. *thought to self: must be new guy* Aha I was right, either that or he read my mind...tells me he's fairly new to Hondas after I told him more than he knew about what he's selling in 5 minutes. Very pleasant guy to deal with I must say, took the keys out and off we go on Crowchild and Stoney again. OKAY, I admit it, I love the seats...MORE comfy than Camry! Could not believe it, been driving Hondas all my life, never thought the seats would be so comfy. Whoever said it earlier in the thread was right. V6 had ballz, tons. 5-spd auto more lively than Camry, not as much as the Mazda6 but fine with me...sportshift is definitely not a top priority. The Brakes: Coming off a Camry test drive where the brakes have to be stomped on to do anything...the Accord jerked me forward as soon as I touched the pedal....holy touchy batman...not impressed...BUT THE DAMN SEATS ARE SO PLUSH...My back kept telling me this is THE ONE. The interior is also top freaking notch, best I've seen so far...web pics dont do it justice. Of course the price is also top notch too haha...talk about sticker shock... but CarCostCanada will take care of that I can't believe after all this time car shopping I'm sucked back into the World of Honda again...I was all but ready to switch it up a little lol...looks like me & Hondas are just meant to be or something

So yeah I feel like such a hypocrite haha, I now have 2 serious consideration between the Accord and the Mazda6. Although I plan to drive the 4-cyl Accord...see if the brakes would be less touchy...man I really hated that but other than that it was perfect...save for the styling...UGH. Mazda looks good, but I still think it's too sharp for me...and I don't really have faith in their Ford background and track record....

Today (Friday)'s plan:

I wanna drive the Sonata and the G6, and I will today dammit. Malibu Maxx and the Subie is now off the list after some thoughts, replaced by the 6 and the Accord. As for the Camry...I wanted something conservative and functional...but the video-game steering (think PS2 with a cheap Logitech wheel) and Access Toyota is turning me off.

SO MANY BLOODY DECISIONS, why is buying a car so damn hard these days!?

[Bill Bumface]

I LOVE touchy brakes! What are you talking about!?

Mazda 6's are great looking cars, Accords not as much (they look fat and bloated to me).

How was handling between the Accord and the 6? If the faster car was also the better handler it'd be an easy decision for me.

[Mango]

I'm so glad you went to North Hill! I love the automatic features on the Mazda sedans.

Good luck with your purchase Make sure to let us know what you end up with.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Dunno if it matters, but Access toyota pricing is no longer fixed. Toyota was sued for price fixing and delaers can and do deal.

Or so I'm told.

Your car shopping mirrors my own (minivans unfortunately) . I started off looking at Hondas because I'm partial to Hondas. Their minivan is a lot more expensive than the competion so I desperately wanted soemthing else, but we keep coming back to Honda for the features we want.

I think we'll wait til the 2006s come out and see if anyone else comes up with a van that cranks our turn.