Communism??

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

So did you think they could open the doors to capitalism and everyone would flourish right away. Of course people are living in poverty right now, but in years to come, I would put much money on these republics becoming very stable nations.

Sure there was propaganda, but the Russian government has admitted that some horrible things have happened things, unthinkable acts have been committed against other humans. That makes it evil.

[Displaced Flames fan]

FlamesAddiction....how can you in the same breath criticize Mr. Mustard for not knowing your family background and then tell him what he knows is based on Western propoganda? How do you know he doesn't have a similar family history?

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Aug 22 2004, 12:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Aug 22 2004, 12:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mean Mr. Mustard@Aug 21 2004, 11:58 PM
What isn't true about what I stated, did the Ukraine not have their food taken by the state for the greater good? Did people not get sent to the Goulags to die/be slaved and die? Did the USSR not crush a rebellion in Czechoslovakia? Did they not do the same in Hungary? Did the people of Poland not suffer horribly? What have I stated that wasn't a fact, please enlighten me?

See, you're not even talking about communism directly. You are talking about what certain governments did, and those governments happen to be communist.

There are numerous non-communist and capitalist countries that oppress their people as well. Hell, Iraq under Saddam Hussein was capitalist. [/b][/quote]
Of course there are other nations which do it, but it is one of the things which is needed for a communist system to get off the ground in practice, well unless every single person decides to quit striving for a better life for themselves, give up their land and work for the state for peanuts. China, Cuba, the USSR, and many other communist nations have a noteable history of opressing their people, for some reason that would lead me to believe that there is a connection between the oppression of citizens and communism.

DFF I don't have family that was forced to live under a communist system of government and every day I am thankful for that. However we do have some very good family friends that lived under in Poland during communist rule, and the stories they tell are horrifying. Something tells me they are not just spewing propaganda. They lived near Chernobyl when it went haywire and they were not told what was happening, the rain coming down from a blue sky with no one really knowing what was going on. Then when they did move people out (much later, days later) they were put into shelters, the land they lived on was poisoned, and they had no where else to go, and guess what, the grand old state didn't help them one bit. Hell she had small children and she was pregnant, and she was given little medical attention. But that is all western propaganda right?

[FlamesAddiction]

My point is that there is nothing intrinsically good or evil of capitalism or communism - it just depends on how it is used.

Take India for example: It's the world's largest democracy and free market nation, yet millions are living in poverty. Millions of women are murdered every year because their families cannot afford to look after them, and they have no hope in marrying. Millions more are sold into indentured labour because of industries directly related to India's capitalist practices. Are we to say that capitalism is "evil"?

Mexico is another good example - and no, I am not talking about Cancun or Puerto Vallarta. Chiapis is extremely impoverished, and the people there are desperate for wealth distribution of some kind. Go there and as a Marxist rebel which is evil. You would likely get a different answer than what you are accustomed to.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

So now your taking the view that communism isn't evil because there are bad things that happen in capitalism also. That seems to me as though you are admitting that communism is not the great hope that you seem to make it out to be.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Aug 22 2004, 12:45 AM
So now your taking the view that communism isn't evil because there are bad things that happen in capitalism also. That seems to me as though you are admitting that communism is not the great hope that you seem to make it out to be.

What the hell are you talking about?

When did I say that communism was some kind of great hope. Show me the exact post!

edit: Sorry for swearing.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

It was a complete exageration of the facts. However you have stated yourself that you fall to the far left on the political spectrum, and you have defended communism here stating that it really isn't that bad. I would have thought that smiley there would let you realize that I wasn't being completely serious, however you must admit that you are defending communism and it's principles, almost ignoring that horrible stuff happened.

Plus you calling me an idiot there makes you look like someone who just stepped out of an into to political science class that had some hippy professor who you believed everything that came out of his great mouth and as a result any decenting opinion is one which is not worthy of your time.

Sure capitalism does have some very very horrible things that go along with it but so does communism.

Plus show me evidence that millions upon millions of women are killed in India each year. Because I can and will back up everything I have given as a fact, something I have the feeling you will not do.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Aug 21 2004, 10:07 PM
Can you explain why so many Cubans have left for or attempted to leave for the US?

It's not nearly as rosy a life as you make it out to be.

Communism, as it has been implemented on this planet, is inherently oppressive. Oppression could very easily be considered evil.

40 years of blockade has crippled Cuba's economy and has made getting even basic services a challenge. Let's put it to you this way Dis, if Witchita got blockaded by the surrounding cities and towns in the state, and your family needed medical attention or just food on the table, would you not run the lockade to get them the assistance you felt was needed? Now the only reason they head for Florida is because it is a very short, and relatively easy trip (comparatively speaking), not because it's such a great place to live. Plus, they blend in so well in south Florida that it is hard to pick out the illegal.

To answer the question, Communism is a great idea in a Utopian world. Unfortunately the world is not Utopian and very few humans would survive in such an idealistic spot. Utopia does not take into consideration the basic desire of most humans to better themselves and achieve greater things/challenges. Communism fails to answer these traits as well and breeds a nation of non-motivated under-achievers. If there was some way of honestly rewarding people in a Communist model then I think it would be a great system to live under (if you are non-motivated). Unfortunately there is no just way for it to work, and has proven to be way too open to corruption, hence its failings.

[FlamesAddiction]

Plus show me evidence that millions upon millions of women are killed in India each year. Because I can and will back up everything I have given as a fact, something I have the feeling you will not do.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=India+women+...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Aug 22 2004, 12:20 AM
FlamesAddiction....how can you in the same breath criticize Mr. Mustard for not knowing your family background and then tell him what he knows is based on Western propoganda? How do you know he doesn't have a similar family history?

Because if he did, he wouldn't be able to make blanket statements about what people over there think. I know for a fact that many people in former communist countries still support communism in some form or another, therefore I took no risk in making the statement.

[Flame On]

Communism is a system that falls apart when humans get involved. Humans that can be corrupt or seek to maintain their positions through opression. Watch The Corporation and you'll see that capatalism is really no less evil. Ask the sweat shop workers in Asia when a company moves on having raised their meager standard of living if capatalism works. Or the sex trade children sold in a a free market tourism economy if they get a fair shake. It's not like the current system doesn't make plenty of victims near and far. Communism just lost the marketing war, by it's nature the capitalist one was bound to win that. I prefer living in the freemarket obviously, but it's not like it's flawless any more than communism wasn't.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Flame On@Aug 22 2004, 03:47 AM
Watch The Corporation and you'll see that capatalism is really no less evil.

Captialism demands that there be a certain amount freedom for people to consume. This means that the government has to be somewhat accountable. This is complicated however, when governments only remain accountable to those with the capital since capital equals power. The thing it has going for it is that the freedom that capitalism demands also makes it possible for the under class to gain resources and power. Not always an easy task, but easier than in other forms of government.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Aug 22 2004, 02:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Aug 22 2004, 02:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Displaced Flames fan@Aug 22 2004, 12:20 AM
FlamesAddiction....how can you in the same breath criticize Mr. Mustard for not knowing your family background and then tell him what he knows is based on Western propoganda? How do you know he doesn't have a similar family history?

Because if he did, he wouldn't be able to make blanket statements about what people over there think. I know for a fact that many people in former communist countries still support communism in some form or another, therefore I took no risk in making the statement. [/b][/quote]
No offense, but you're making blanket statements based on 2 parents who left their respective countries and 1 friend. Not much difference as far as I can see.

In any case, my only point was we should always try to be careful when making assumptions about people in this forum. It's easy to assume we have a better perspective if we have a situation like yours, but we might not have a better perspective than some.

That's all I was trying to say.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Aug 22 2004, 04:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Aug 22 2004, 04:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Because if he did, he wouldn't be able to make blanket statements about what people over there think. I know for a fact that many people in former communist countries still support communism in some form or another, therefore I took no risk in making the statement.

No offense, but you're making blanket statements based on 2 parents who left their respective countries and 1 friend. Not much difference as far as I can see.

In any case, my only point was we should always try to be careful when making assumptions about people in this forum. It's easy to assume we have a better perspective if we have a situation like yours, but we might not have a better perspective than some.

That's all I was trying to say. [/b][/quote]
How am I making blanket statements? All I am saying is that MANY (not all) people still see some redeeming qualities in the old communist regimes. And it's not just 3 people, I have more relatives, plus I've spent enough time at places like the Polish Legion and Croatian Cultural Centre to meet a lot of people who lived under communism. Don't get me wrong, no one I know is a "communist supporter", but I don't know anyone who would use the word "evil". That is all I am debating here.

"Many" is not a blanket statement.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

communism:

the flaw is what makes capitalism tick.

PEOPLE ARE LAZY

if you get what you need will you really do your best and put forward all you can? No! Why? Because you don't have to.

Capitalism works on the theory that people put forth the laziest effort to do the best job, aka efficiency.

Communism works in theory (whereas Capitalism does not) however does not work in practice as well, like water humans take the easiest path possible.

[moon]

Too add on to what Maritme Q-scout said:

Communism rewards people for nto working and punishes those who work hard and are innovative.

FlamesAddiction:

What I have a problem with in what you are saying is that you use the term many. To me that means more than half. I think if you simply there are some people that would be a much more acurate statement. probably what you meant but when I first read the thread I was appalled that you were stating that "many" people wanted communism.

[moon]

I put in a few points regarding others discussion earlier and now want to add my two cents:

I have had this argument with many people over the past few years:

Communism and the argument p*sses me off most because people claim Marx as a great thinker when in fact his whole concept of communism shows that he is not at all a great thinker. I will not even begin to attack the flaws in his believes but rather go to the most glaring error in his thesis in that he believes that this economic/political system could ever evolve from a capitalistic society.

Anyone that knows Marx realises that Russia was not supposed to be the birth place of his ideas. Russia was much too rural and had now where near the industrialization Marx had envisioned for his proletariat revolution. He envision this taking place in either Germany or England.

However, he greatly underestimated the power of the industrial elite and never figured that the working class could never gain enough power or solidarity to oppose these people. For him to assume that workers would screw their jobs and risk their families well-being, and at that time their lives, to go through with this revolution was assine. It shows that he had no great thoughts but rather put ideas on to paper that are like me writing a book about how every two fifty plus fat dude should be screwing chicks like Cameron Diaz and Denise Richards, or whoever floats your boat, if we lived in a just society.

Marx's ideas were stupid and incredibly unrealistic but because we have people that are looking for a change they worked for Russian revolutionaries looking to give the people a reason to overthrow the oppressive government at the time and they allow psuedo-intellectual students today, not calling anyone on this board one but commenting on what I see at universities today, to call on this as some sort of all "good", all "right" way to run things. When in fact there is no way in hell that any sort of communism could or even SHOULD work.

[Alexandria]

Funny this topic comes up. I was just reading something off the web the other day.

To understand why some Americans view Communism as "Evil" you need to understand the history behind the campaign to make it look evil.

The McCarthy Period

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by moon@Aug 22 2004, 09:43 AM

FlamesAddiction:

What I have a problem with in what you are saying is that you use the term many. To me that means more than half. I think if you simply there are some people that would be a much more acurate statement. probably what you meant but when I first read the thread I was appalled that you were stating that "many" people wanted communism.

"Many" means many. Nothing else.

I wouldn't use the word "many" if I meant more than half - I would use the word "most". I would say that the number of people is significant, especially since many old communists were re-elected into lower level government positions in many ex-communist countries.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by moon@Aug 22 2004, 09:56 AM
Communism and the argument p*sses me off most because people claim Marx as a great thinker when in fact his whole concept of communism shows that he is not at all a great thinker. I will not even begin to attack the flaws in his believes but rather go to the most glaring error in his thesis in that he believes that this economic/political system could ever evolve from a capitalistic society.

Communism didn't begin or end with Marx though. He never invented it - he just articulated it. It's existed in different forms in Asia and Europe for over 2000 years. Marx just came along at the exact right time in history, with industrial societies beginning to boom and Russia looking to modernize after being the last feudal holdout.