June 6, 1944

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by cDnStealth

I am actually a military history major and WW2 was my focus of study. I've seen hundreds of photos but it really is different to actually see the beach in person. I haven't been to Omaha but I sure would like to see it one day. What gets me about Juno is just how flat it is. There is literally zero cover. Those men would have been completely exposed coming off those boats.

I've been to both beaches twice so I'll try and paint as much of a picture as I can from the two visits. Omaha beach is as flat as Juno, but behind it is a hill/bluff. Here's the beach


Here's the bluff beyond the beach. Note the marker about a third of the way from the right (not the tall one on the left) with some people in white near it.



Here's an ammo storage cache part way up the hill which I believe is beside a machine gun nest or similar. Look at how distant the people on the beach seem.



Here's a shot from a German artillery bunker. I believe they had a view of the western end of Omaha and in the distance by the cliffs is Utah. Pretty dam open to drop whatever they wanted where ever.



And finally here's the marker I pointed out in an earlier photo and the view of the beach from there. totally exposed.





That's a heck of a climb to make while the world is crashing down around you.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

They were aware of their existance, Polish resistance had let them know what was going on to some degree, but there was an inability to understand the scale or enourmity of it. When it came time to decide whether to bomb the camps it was decided not to as prisoners would be killed and this was thought unacceptable.

Until we liberated the camps they were seen as 'just' concentration camps, not death factories.

I've heard varying accounts of that though. It would certainly seem as though the Allies knew as early as 1942 but really didn't want to face it and acknowledge it. There is almost no question when you step back and look at things that they knew what was going on before they liberated the camps. This is one of the reasons that situations like North Korea today are even more disgusting and deplorable: we all know (or very easily could) what's going on there. Its not entirely different, sadly. At least a large part of the point of that liberation was to never let that kind of suffering happen again.

[cDnStealth]

Thanks for sharing that FurnaceFace. It's insane to think that men had to run across all of that distance completely exposed the entire time. I absolutely need to visit Omaha at some point.

[Riles]

Last spring, I was able to visit several sites in Normandy, including Juno Beach and the Canadian cemetery Beny-sur-Mer, and Belgium (Vimy Ridge, the Menin Gate and Passchendaele).

Each place was incredible in so many ways. To be at the Vimy Memorial is so humbling and uplifting. Juno Beach was the same. Being at those places makes you wish all Canadians would visit them and see where our country played such a big role in world history.

[undercoverbrother]

size

Spoiler!

[Northendzone]

Originally Posted by cDnStealth

I am actually a military history major and WW2 was my focus of study. I've seen hundreds of photos but it really is different to actually see the beach in person. I haven't been to Omaha but I sure would like to see it one day. What gets me about Juno is just how flat it is. There is literally zero cover. Those men would have been completely exposed coming off those boats.

i am curious, from an overall battle plan perspective, how have military historians judged the battle?

[cDnStealth]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i am curious, from an overall battle plan perspective, how have military historians judged the battle?

I could spend days (and I have haha) going over the Normandy Invasion. I found that there really isn't a straight forward answer to your question. Obviously it worked but there were plenty of things that went wrong before, during and after. It's a pretty contentious issue and historians have been arguing over the Normandy campaign for decades. Is there something more specific you'd like to know? For instance, are you wondering if there was a better option? If you're asking how Allied forces did in comparison to their objectives then I can tell you that none of the invasion forces actually seized their final D-Day objectives. The Canadian forces made it the closest and had progress farther inland than any other Allied unit.

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by Riles

Last spring, I was able to visit several sites in Normandy, including Juno Beach and the Canadian cemetery Beny-sur-Mer, and Belgium (Vimy Ridge, the Menin Gate and Passchendaele).

Each place was incredible in so many ways. To be at the Vimy Memorial is so humbling and uplifting. Juno Beach was the same. Being at those places makes you wish all Canadians would visit them and see where our country played such a big role in world history.

Dieppe was the hardest for me. Standing on the rocks/pebbles they call a beach left with only one impression "a landing here would never have succeeded." That raid is a defining moment to me because it showed what wouldn't work. The soldiers in that raid were for the most part sacrificed for the success of D Day.

The US cemetery at Coleville is similarly moving just in the size of it. It's very well done and very respectful to the fallen.

Regarding the question if D Day was a success or not I don't have as much book knowledge as Stealth but I'd agree with his statement. Ultimately it was a success though I think there were moments where it was on a knife edge and could have easily turned the other way.

The paratrooper drop the night of the 5th was a bit of a mess. They were dropped all over and many guys were nowhere near where they needed to be. Some key objectives like bridges were taken and perhaps the scattering of forces may have helped as it drew confusion among the German leaders.

On some of the beaches the landing forces stalled and were close to failing had it not been for small groups of men who rallied. I recall reading for Omaha the commander almost didn't send the second wave.

Like many things in history there are also accounts where had the German forces done one thing or another differently it would have all fallen apart.

- The Germans had knowledge of the code the BBC would broadcast to the French Resistance informing them the attack was going to happen within 24 hrs.

- The commanders for the Norman defense had been called away to a meeting and in the face of the code, they still held the meeting.

- German command was slow to react and initially felt the reports of the raid were a ruse by the Allies and the main attack force was landing at Pas-de-Calais or that area as it was the closest crossing. The Allies helped lend support to this idea as they had bombed the area and did some diversionary tactics.

- Related to the above German command held back troops and tanks until it was too late. Had they committed the first might have been very different.

There are probably a pile of other "if this happened..." scenarios but these are the more popular ones I know of.

[CaptainCrunch]

While we're saluting the D Day invasion, lets not forget the brilliance of Operation Fortitude a plan that probably saved thousands of lives.

http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-her...fortitudes.htm

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

Dieppe was the hardest for me. Standing on the rocks/pebbles they call a beach left with only one impression "a landing here would never have succeeded." That raid is a defining moment to me because it showed what wouldn't work. The soldiers in that raid were for the most part sacrificed for the success of D Day.

The US cemetery at Coleville is similarly moving just in the size of it. It's very well done and very respectful to the fallen.

Regarding the question if D Day was a success or not I don't have as much book knowledge as Stealth but I'd agree with his statement. Ultimately it was a success though I think there were moments where it was on a knife edge and could have easily turned the other way.

The paratrooper drop the night of the 5th was a bit of a mess. They were dropped all over and many guys were nowhere near where they needed to be. Some key objectives like bridges were taken and perhaps the scattering of forces may have helped as it drew confusion among the German leaders.

On some of the beaches the landing forces stalled and were close to failing had it not been for small groups of men who rallied. I recall reading for Omaha the commander almost didn't send the second wave.

Like many things in history there are also accounts where had the German forces done one thing or another differently it would have all fallen apart.

- The Germans had knowledge of the code the BBC would broadcast to the French Resistance informing them the attack was going to happen within 24 hrs.

- The commanders for the Norman defense had been called away to a meeting and in the face of the code, they still held the meeting.

- German command was slow to react and initially felt the reports of the raid were a ruse by the Allies and the main attack force was landing at Pas-de-Calais or that area as it was the closest crossing. The Allies helped lend support to this idea as they had bombed the area and did some diversionary tactics.

- Related to the above German command held back troops and tanks until it was too late. Had they committed the first might have been very different.

There are probably a pile of other "if this happened..." scenarios but these are the more popular ones I know of.

Don't forget that the naval bombardment and the air strikes were extremely ineffective and poorly targeted.

Instead of going up against smashed or disabled defenses, the allied troops pretty much hit the beach against an unscathed and alert enemy.

[FiftyBelow]

I'll be heading over to France in October. I'll actually be quite close to Normandy so I was thinking about driving over to the landing beaches. I'll be taking a train from Paris to Lisieux and spending a little bit of time in that town. Would it be easy to find a car rental around that area and make the drive over?

[sa226]

Originally Posted by FiftyBelow

I'll be heading over to France in October. I'll actually be quite close to Normandy so I was thinking about driving over to the landing beaches. I'll be taking a train from Paris to Lisieux and spending a little bit of time in that town. Would it be easy to find a car rental around that area and make the drive over?

Without knowing why and for how long you are going I don't know if this is a realistic suggestion but here goes...

Keep going on that train to Caen, then hop another train and continue on to Bayeux.

Do yourself a huge favour and take a tour from one of the tour guides in Bayeux. I can recommend some, but would have to dig up the pamphlet thingy's. There are so many things you would miss if you don't have a guide to point things out. Make no mistake these guides are not there to collect a paycheck, they have a passion for what they do.

The tours I did of the D Day beaches and airdrop zones are near the top of my list of most awesome travel experiences.

If you want to get the most out of a trip to that area, and have the time. Do a tour, and then go back again and take a look around at your own pace.

For history buffs, it is an incredible experience. For everybody else, it is a worthwhile and necessary experience that one won't regret.


I took the picture on the right, looking east down Juno Beach. The other one is taken in roughly the same spot. You can see the similar shapes of the buildings. Spoilers for size

Spoiler!

[FurnaceFace]

I've always wanted to take a tour with these guys.

http://www.normandybattlefields.com

I just noticed they have an ebook. I bet that would be worth it and will likely download once I get home.

[MoneyGuy]

Great photos and thanks for posting them. I'm a WWII Europe buff and gobble all this stuff up. (If anyone is interested in the URL, I'm a member at a great WWII discussion forum.)

There is a reason they were called the greatest generation in history. I cannot imagine what they went through to put their lives on the line to destroy an evil menace.

Every time I meet a WWII vet (it's rare these days), I shake his hand and want to give the guy (or woman) a hug. I have total, total respect for those people. We MUST never forget what they did for us. I bow to their incredible bravery and sacrifice.

[sparky69]

Originally Posted by FiftyBelow

I'll be heading over to France in October. I'll actually be quite close to Normandy so I was thinking about driving over to the landing beaches. I'll be taking a train from Paris to Lisieux and spending a little bit of time in that town. Would it be easy to find a car rental around that area and make the drive over?

Yes rent a car, i was there in Jan and that was the easy thing to get around with

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Great photos and thanks for posting them. I'm a WWII Europe buff and gobble all this stuff up. (If anyone is interested in the URL, I'm a member at a great WWII discussion forum.)

There is a reason they were called the greatest generation in history. I cannot imagine what they went through to put their lives on the line to destroy an evil menace.

Every time I meet a WWII vet (it's rare these days), I shake his hand and want to give the guy (or woman) a hug. I have total, total respect for those people. We MUST never forget what they did for us. I bow to their incredible bravery and sacrifice.

I've met a lot of D-Day veteran's in my life. Every rememberance day when I was in the military I would end up in the legion at Banff with a bunch of old vets.

But the guys that went up the beach area lot different, they tend to be a lot more grateful about their life. They remember every aspect of that battle, they just look tough even when they were sick and in the later light of their lives.

I remember meeting a old guy who claimed that he had been in the battle for Stalingrad, and the stories he told were amazing and even at the age of 90 his hands still shook.

[You Need a Thneed]

I think it's got to be completely impossible for someone who wasn't there to understand what landing at those beaches must have been like.

[Northendzone]

Originally Posted by cDnStealth

I could spend days (and I have haha) going over the Normandy Invasion. I found that there really isn't a straight forward answer to your question. Obviously it worked but there were plenty of things that went wrong before, during and after. It's a pretty contentious issue and historians have been arguing over the Normandy campaign for decades. Is there something more specific you'd like to know? For instance, are you wondering if there was a better option? If you're asking how Allied forces did in comparison to their objectives then I can tell you that none of the invasion forces actually seized their final D-Day objectives. The Canadian forces made it the closest and had progress farther inland than any other Allied unit.

i guess i was wondering if knowing what we know today, was the battle plan solid, or was it flawed and it just happened to work out. obviously there are lots of moving parts and variables here but it seem that the nposts provided by you and FurnaceFace provided me with some of the insight i was looking for.

the start of saving private ryan seems to me to represent what those guys went thru right after getting of the landing craft - and if the movie is clsoe to reality, i could not imagine being able to function on almost any level.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

While we're saluting the D Day invasion, lets not forget the brilliance of Operation Fortitude a plan that probably saved thousands of lives.

http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-her...fortitudes.htm

Cool story!

[cDnStealth]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i guess i was wondering if knowing what we know today, was the battle plan solid, or was it flawed and it just happened to work out. obviously there are lots of moving parts and variables here but it seem that the nposts provided by you and FurnaceFace provided me with some of the insight i was looking for.

the start of saving private ryan seems to me to represent what those guys went thru right after getting of the landing craft - and if the movie is clsoe to reality, i could not imagine being able to function on almost any level.

The only other logical option at the time would have been to invade France through Italy but that would have taken a long time. Basically the Soviets were demanding relief and that meant that the Allies had to get boots into France sooner rather than later. No plan is perfect. There are plenty of things I would have changed if given the opportunity. I do however, think they did a damn admirable job given the sheer number of obstacles and challenges thrown in their way.