Their domestic service might not be that good, but their long haul international service is actually decent.
Can we NOT turn this into an Air Canada vs. WestJet thread, please?
I have no intent of going down that road, just expressing my experience, strictly speaking in terms of their domestic service.
Last time I took an international flight, I was 15. We flew on standby (dad worked in maintenance at Air Canada) and I ended up sitting in Air Canada's first class seating. That was a treat.
I use to fly alot. I still fly quite a bit but only around 20+ flights a year.
Back in 2006, I flew overseas alot. I flew over 200,000 miles and I only flew air Canada and its star alliance partners. Flying was all paid through work but with that being said I now only fly air canada unless there is an absolute deal, but chances are if west jet has a sale air canada matches shortly and vice versa. I stick with air canada now mainly because of the point system. I am in bed with aeroplan. I still have enough aeroplan miles for 8 free flights in north america and I just booked 2 for me and my son to go to New York for xmas.
I fly the Calgary - GP route alot still for work and that route is a cash cow!!! I'm on an old Dash8 and usually my flights are anywhere from $500 - $800 (including return). I'm honestly thinking that, this has to be one of air canadas more profitable routes. Some people say why not go Westjet to GP, I say because westjet doesn't have a great time slot for this. Air Canada seems to have great time slots for everywhere they fly.
I do agree though that service for AC vs Westjet doesn't compare and westjet has been great for the rare times I fly, while I have more issues with AC. But then again I could care less about service as long as the plane gets me there and on time.
The problem with the Dash8's is that they have limitations in some weather conditions hence why air canada tends to have more delays from my experience. Westjet will start to experience this when they startup there regional airline.
As per the original topic, it has already been nailed pretty well.
Having flown on both A/C and WestJet in the past few years, I can honestly say I felt the experience on WestJet was better and that I got more for my money.
If there's a company that has set the bar low for what you should expect in quality of service, it's absolutely Air Canada.
My experience is that they are both pretty much the same with WestJet being slightly worse. WestJet pilots like to get on the intercom and tell lame jokes and make corny announcements which makes them a little more likable (although I find them annoying most of the time), but it's smoke and mirrors. I was bumped from overbooked WestJet flights twice (even though they claim to not overbook) and never bumped from Air Canada (could be just luck, but whatever). The last 2 times I flew with West Jet, their live TV entertainment didn't work. I never had that problem with Air Canada.
Also, being Star Alliance for Air Canada is a big plus. I love just being able to throw my luggage on when I start and getting it tranferred automatically even when changing airlines.
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Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 05-29-2012 at 07:08 AM.
What drove up Westjets prices was expanding their offerings and the quality their brand has developed. I think they could still be fairly cheap if they even just went back to Canada only, but not having as many full flights obviously means they have to make up the difference somewhere else. They also know many people are not fans of Air Canada, so why not charge more if people will pay it? Even if Westjet is a bit more I'd rather fly with them.
They won't charge more than AC because people won't pay it. With the exception of first/business class travelers price is king.
I fly the Calgary - GP route alot still for work and that route is a cash cow!!! I'm on an old Dash8 and usually my flights are anywhere from $500 - $800 (including return). I'm honestly thinking that, this has to be one of air canadas more profitable routes. Some people say why not go Westjet to GP, I say because westjet doesn't have a great time slot for this. Air Canada seems to have great time slots for everywhere they fly.
It is a crazy route. I can fly GP to Toronto via Calgary and the round trip ticket is $100 more than the round trip from GP to Calgary. Yet their flights are always full. I definitely agree with AC having better timeslots. It always seems that with AC you can fly in and out on the same day but Westjet requires an overnight stay or returning at 11PM.
I use to fly alot. I still fly quite a bit but only around 20+ flights a year.
Back in 2006, I flew overseas alot. I flew over 200,000 miles and I only flew air Canada and its star alliance partners. Flying was all paid through work but with that being said I now only fly air canada unless there is an absolute deal, but chances are if west jet has a sale air canada matches shortly and vice versa. I stick with air canada now mainly because of the point system. I am in bed with aeroplan. I still have enough aeroplan miles for 8 free flights in north america and I just booked 2 for me and my son to go to New York for xmas.
I fly the Calgary - GP route alot still for work and that route is a cash cow!!! I'm on an old Dash8 and usually my flights are anywhere from $500 - $800 (including return). I'm honestly thinking that, this has to be one of air canadas more profitable routes. Some people say why not go Westjet to GP, I say because westjet doesn't have a great time slot for this. Air Canada seems to have great time slots for everywhere they fly.
I do agree though that service for AC vs Westjet doesn't compare and westjet has been great for the rare times I fly, while I have more issues with AC. But then again I could care less about service as long as the plane gets me there and on time.
The problem with the Dash8's is that they have limitations in some weather conditions hence why air canada tends to have more delays from my experience. Westjet will start to experience this when they startup there regional airline.
As per the original topic, it has already been nailed pretty well.
^^^^
Exactly the reason Westjet is starting its own regional airline.
As to lack of discount airlines. There have been alot that have come and gone in just the last decade. Zip, CanJet, Canada 3000, Harmony Airways, SykService, Zoom, Jetsgo etc.
Its not like people havent tried. Not many buisness people are willing to lose money to start an airline just to Canadians have more options to fly.
This is one of the reasons as to why many people think the US and Canada should have an open skies policy. I think had 9/11 not happened, it would have happened already. After 9/11 I dont think we will see it for at least a few decades.
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They won't charge more than AC because people won't pay it. With the exception of first/business class travelers price is king.
Oh I get that, what I'm saying is if you're Westjet, and you can price a flight from say Vancouver to Montreal for $199 one way and make money. But if Air Canada is charging $299, and you know people prefer you, why not charge all the way up to $299? Thats more what I'm saying, they can price themselves closer or at par with AC prices because their brand is more valued by customers.
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Oh I get that, what I'm saying is if you're Westjet, and you can price a flight from say Vancouver to Montreal for $199 one way and make money. But if Air Canada is charging $299, and you know people prefer you, why not charge all the way up to $299? Thats more what I'm saying, they can price themselves closer or at par with AC prices because their brand is more valued by customers.
Ah I see what you were getting at. I just wonder when the last time anyone saw a WJ fare that was substantially cheaper than the AC one? It seems more often than not we are talking a few dollars difference at the most.
This is one of the reasons as to why many people think the US and Canada should have an open skies policy. I think had 9/11 not happened, it would have happened already. After 9/11 I dont think we will see it for at least a few decades.
Would those American airlines really be able to offer any better than the Canadian ones with our system up here? Let's say JetBlue wanted to operate YYC-YYZ, they would still have to pay all the same ridiculous fees that WestJet and Air Canada do.
I believe it is generally regarded in the industry that those with the most to gain from a true open skies policy would be the Canadian carriers, especially Air Canada.
Very true bigtime. I don't know about AC necessarily being the main beneficiaries, but I will say that at WJ we would have no problem with open skies if the playing field is level.
It's like saying a US oil/gas company can come into Alberta and harvest our resources without having to worry about environmental rules or without having to pay any govt royalties, while bringing in foreign workers to replace Canadian ones.
True, I think both WS and AC would benefit greatly from open skies. The primary reason being that they both offer service and an in-flight product hundreds of times better then the majority of US carriers. It would be like shooting fish in a barrel for them.
in addition to WJ and AC, I think if open skies policy was to take effect today or relatively soon, I think American would have a leg up on all of them.
They're in the process of an overhaul of their fleet, about to bring in a ton of new planes. It'd just be a matter of ensuring those planes have the required upgrades to compete with entertainment systems, leg room, internet, etc.
JetBlue would probably have an easy time entering into the Canadian market. They don't seem afraid to try more rural areas building a base with their E190s. While I haven't flown on either American or JetBlue I would think they'd be prime to come North.
That said, in terms of services offered and customer service I'd expect one of the big American airlines to go under with an open skies policy (Delta perhaps?). You'd be introducing two new players into a game that have better operations than those in the States; one who is profitable, the other with protection from the Canadian government and has made inroads into a partnership with a US regional carrier already.
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The service and flight experience on both WestJet and Air Canada is miles better than any U.S. airline I've ever been on. There's no seatback entertainment and in some cases (United) you don't even get anything to eat or drink. Just water. I had to endure that once on a four hour flight from Chicago to Seattle. And for the pleasure of all the amenities I got, I had to pay $25 for one checked bag (which they lost).
The service and flight experience on both WestJet and Air Canada is miles better than any U.S. airline I've ever been on. There's no seatback entertainment and in some cases (United) you don't even get anything to eat or drink. Just water. I had to endure that once on a four hour flight from Chicago to Seattle. And for the pleasure of all the amenities I got, I had to pay $25 for one checked bag (which they lost).
This is very true. As far as North America is concerned (maybe further) the Domestic service in Canada, in my opinion is second to none.
I have been trying to find an article that I read recently about the costs of operating in Canada. The government essentially gouges the airlines in Canada because of the lease agreements the airports have with the government are obscene, and the costs are passed on to the airlines and another portion is passed on to the customers.
It has been mentioned a few times already. Taxes and fees play maybe the biggest role (along with fuel prices) in setting ticket prices, and Canada is one of the most expensive countries to fly into.
95% of paying customers will go for the cheapest ticket, regardless of service or other factors. But I would ask myself; do you really want a low cost carrier modeled after Jetstar, Ryan Air, or some of the US connector carriers?
This is a pretty long video, but if you have some time, I would encourage people to watch it. It is a sobering look into what is going on in the US aviation industry. It hasn't happened in Canada quite yet, but we could be on the brink. The next 1- 5 years are going to be very interesting in the Canadian Aviation industry
For people who don't want to watch that for the next hour, is thre a basic summary?
Are there safety concerns on these cheapo airlines?
Maybe I'm getting old... but I'm missing the sex joke here, I mean the post is by Fotze so obviously there's joke there.
The video is basically:
Regional airlines aren't the national airline, say whaaaaaaa? You mean when you fly on a regional carrier that has a similar but different name from the national carrier isn't the national carrier? On your ticket it says operated by someone else, and that means it's operated by that other company? This is shocking!!!!
The second part is basically: first officers at Colgan make $16,000/yr, the FO's they interview made about $22,000/yr again not a lot. They then talk about the horrors of what this means. Which is fair. However they then go on to say that within a year they'll be promoted to captain so all the financial issues are essentially gone.
The third part is about pilot experience, which is probably an issue. Although with how skewed the journalism is, and focusing on the exceptions rather than what is happening overall I don't feel like I can form a good opinion based on the video.
Safety is hounded through the whole video. Which is fair. However they seem to think that Continental should be responsible for the operations of Colgan. I don't know if I'd go that far. There's a line at the end that said "people thought they were flying on Continental, and were getting Continental safety" which isn't really the case. The tickets say it's not operated by Continental, and if the national carriers need to shoulder check who they contract to, what's the point of contracting? The regional carriers are supposed to be up to FAA standards if they are in violation of that, I don't think the national carrier should be held harmful for it.
Basically the video is interesting, but is full of so much misinformation I didn't take a whole lot from it. If you want to do an expose like that, you should show both sides of the story, and demonstrate the differences in what one side is saying over the other. It was too lopsided, and edited too awkwardly for me. Shock journalism at its finest.
That said I'm not defending Colgan, just attacking Frontline. Frontline could be right, just presented their story wrong.
To top it all off, Colgan has been approved to operation international flights under the banner Air Canada Express:
I'm not sure how I feel about that, however it does lead to a post I've been contemplating for a while. I'll let it sit further and probably start a new thread on the topic.
As for worry about safety, not really in Canada. I'm not a huge fan of SMS (the safety check process used by Transport Canada) however I don't see it being an issue with the major players (more so the carriers servicing up north).
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Last edited by Maritime Q-Scout; 05-29-2012 at 12:26 PM.
Jazz is already a separate company from Air Canada (http://www.flyjazz.ca)- I dont think its a terrible situation. The simple fact is regional airlines for alot of airlines are a way to not have to add on to union contracts for smaller planes for smaller destinations.
How many hours does someone need to be a pilot. In alot of airlines the only reason senior pilots have higher flight hours is not because its an actual requirement, but that you just have to wait along time to get to widebody flights.
Also remember, with regional airlines it allows lets say Edmonton to Calgary.
To profitably operate 737 (150) seats likely means 6 flights a day. Where as if you fly a turboprop (70) you can operate 12-15 flights a day meaning its more convenient for the passenger and with the airline it allows you to maximize your profit by increasing the seat price at the busiest hours.
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You would *think* at the end of the day it would come down to population density.
If Canada had a larger number of people in a smaller area, the invisible hand of economics should work things out, and we'd see pressure for lower taxes on airfare, incentive for more competition, etc.
But as already mentioned, Australia is a great example to compare ourselves against. Similar size of population, spread out over a geographically large space.
And we can see that Australia is able to support lower prices...
Canada:
Toronto to Vancouver = 3355 km
Toronto to Vancouver = ~6 million people between the two cities (depending on what you call Toronto vs the GTA)
Toronto to Vancouver = usual bottom price of about $600 roundtrip after taxes
= 17.88 cents / km
Australia:
Sydney to Perth = 3284km
Sydney to Perth = ~6 million people between the two cities
Sydney to Perth = usual bottom price of about CDN $350 roundtrip after taxes
= 10.6 cents / km
An article regarding airline competition in Australia....
DOMESTIC air travel in Australia has long suffered from a lack of competition.
The industry has always been a virtual duopoly. From the late 1950s until the early 1990s, Australians had the choice of the government's TAA or Ansett. They competed on the same routes with similarly exorbitant fares, among the highest in the world.
Sound familiar?
Quote:
Tiger Airways, which is backed by Singapore Airlines, will launch domestic services in Australia at the end of October. Its main competitor will be Jetstar, the budget offshoot that Qantas established in 2003 to cater for the low-cost end of the market. Virgin Blue has also said it is toying with the creation of its own low-cost domestic carrier, which would free it to take on Qantas at the high end of the market.
The impact of increased competition is already being felt as Tiger tries to blow Jetstar out of the market with fares such as $59.95 one way from Melbourne to Perth. Jetstar has matched most of Tiger's offerings.
So essentially, a few low cost carriers were allowed to compete (Jetstar and Tiger) and suddenly Australia found that they could support them, and Ozzies were suddenly able to travel cheaply within their own country.
Although one might be cautious of just how budget you want to get when it comes to airlines...
Aviation regulators grounded budget carrier Tiger Airways Australia Saturday because it posed a "serious and imminent risk to air safety", throwing the travel plans of thousands of people into chaos.
It seems like you need at least 3 airlines to make a market competitive. 2 just begs for a duopoly. Prices out in Eastern Canada are a little better than in the West thanks to Porter.
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