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Old 05-23-2012, 09:56 AM   #21
Yasa
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Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch View Post
Does anyone actually know how this program works and how the certification of U.S. police personal and Canadian Police personal works under the shiprider program.

Or did we just read the first 10 lines of the article see the subscribe now and say I'm not going to subscribe but I'm angry.

There has always been interoperability between Canadian and U.S. law enforcement agencies, including U.S. law enforcement riding shotgun on investigations in Canada and vice versa.

But I don't see anything that has FBI or DEA agents smashing through Canadian Doors with guns drawn, pulling sacks over some person's head and driving them to a black jet to fly them over the border.

The fact is that Crime has taken a international flavor in North America, we're seeing a proliferation of gangs in Canada working with gangs in the States working with gangs in Mexico. We also have active fugative issues of people fleeing to Canada or to the States.

How many times have we heard of one parent kidnapping a kid and dragging them to a different city.

I don't see anywhere that states that the various law enforcement agencies are working with impunity and without supervision by the host law enforcement agency.
I don't have a problem with joint operations. I have a problem with the Canadian government giving US law enforcement the ability to roll through our borders with legal jurisdiction in our territory. Like I said in my original post; why aren't we focused on trying to create a better communication infastructure for intercept?

There's no reason the FBI and DEA can't work with the RCMP and CSIS as they do today to catch border hopping criminals. I see no reason for the US to be in Canadian waters in pursuit of anybody. If there's a threat of these water-based pursuits crossing the border then the US Coast Guard or whoever is chasing should have ample time to connect with Canadian law enforcement to take over.

I get that we're friendly countries, but that doesn't mean we have to give up our borders in the name of "security." I fail to see what this will accomplish in the long run.

I have no doubts that the US operates in Canada already while under supervision (like you state, and I'm fine with) but from what I understand, this bill is set to allow the US to operate unsupervised if they need to. If this is the case, then I disagree with it completely.

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Old 05-23-2012, 10:02 AM   #22
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Maybe those losers in Quebec should change their protest from idiocy (what they're doing now), to you know, something that actually matters (this)?
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:19 AM   #23
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Relax guys, they're only after the bad guys here, nothing to worry about...
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:39 AM   #24
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While the NDP and Liberals may hate each other, we know they hate Harper more. I suspect if their options are fight each other and Harper wins or band together to give the best option to eliminate Harper, that they'll swallow their pride to make it happen. I do think the Liberal brand is weak right now, but it obviously has more national appeal than the NDP brand, which is essentially stuck with union heavy BC and Quebec.

I also think if the Conservatives win again, it won't be a majority, and how can you justify keeping a leader who lost a majority they likely won't get back again? Other than the conservatives have no one better? So I think barring a miracle majority repeat for Harper, he'll be done as PM either way.
the only reason why there was ever talk of a "merger" was in the face of a minority government. There will never be a permanent merger of the left because the Liberals won't allow it because currently they and their brand would be devoured and too many of the old school liberals would immediately start their own brand. The NDP would only do it conditional on the NDP being the dominant entity in any arrangement.

And trust me when I say, as much as the NDP and Liberal;s hate the convervatives, they hate each other even more. the Liberal's still see themselves as the natural ruling party and they also strongly believe that they will eventually return to prominance based on their name recogintion alone. They also look at the NDP as a fluke and a freak etreme far left brand that they don't share any common ground with.

The NDP knows that they need to strike while they have momentum. Deep down they have to know that their win in the last election is more an one time thing then a on going fact.

Even then, in the next election the centrist Liberal voters probably won't vote for the NDP again. they got their protest out, and realized that the NDP without LAyton is not as attractive.

I would think that there is a vote shift coming on the left side if the NDP can't shut Mulcair up. But no matter what crazy Tom is there in the next election. Chances are Bob Rae will be there in the next election because neither party has aa strong up and coming leadership candidate in their bullpen.

Frankly nobody with Prime Minister desires is going to run for the Liberal's leadership until the Liberal party completely re-invents itself and then takes a few years to regain the faith of the Canadian voters. In order to do that they are going to have to vote out Rae at the next leadership convention, and probably flush out a lot of the old guard.

Now that the NDP is the main enemy of the Conservatives there will be a concentrated effort by Harper and his party to go after them especially the inexperienced winners in the NDP east who seem to have vanished from the lime light.

Unless something radically changes I see a smaller majority for Harper in the next election but a majority non the less.

Mulcair has already given Harper a ton of ammo, and Mulcair is no LAyton in terms of debating skills and in terms of charm, so unless they give Tom a pair of crutches I think the NDP is going to realize that he was simply a bad choice following Jack.

Bob Rae in a campaign could be a disaster especially with the huge dislike for the man in Ontario. Which in a way is to bad because Rae is very camera friendly, well spoken and does have some charisma. He's also a opportunist.

I know that the grooming of Trudeau continues. But I think he's an arrogant pr1ck who lacks the charm and intelligence of his old man. I also think that a Trudeau lead Liberal party wouldn't get a vote east of Quebec or West of Ontario, and they would probably do even worse in Quebec.

I would think that the Conservatives will push very hard for a majority for Harper who would then start positioning his heir apparent during that term. Then at the end of that term Harper would walk into the Sunset.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:47 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasa View Post
I don't have a problem with joint operations. I have a problem with the Canadian government giving US law enforcement the ability to roll through our borders with legal jurisdiction in our territory. Like I said in my original post; why aren't we focused on trying to create a better communication infastructure for intercept?

There's no reason the FBI and DEA can't work with the RCMP and CSIS as they do today to catch border hopping criminals. I see no reason for the US to be in Canadian waters in pursuit of anybody. If there's a threat of these water-based pursuits crossing the border then the US Coast Guard or whoever is chasing should have ample time to connect with Canadian law enforcement to take over.

I get that we're friendly countries, but that doesn't mean we have to give up our borders in the name of "security." I fail to see what this will accomplish in the long run.

I have no doubts that the US operates in Canada already while under supervision (like you state, and I'm fine with) but from what I understand, this bill is set to allow the US to operate unsupervised if they need to. If this is the case, then I disagree with it completely.

I don't think that U.S. law enforcement is going to just "roll into Canada" and work as seperate entities. As I read this its allowing U.S. law enforcement to get certified to work in Canada and vice versa, but I don't think it allows them to work under U.S. law. They have to act under Canadian law with Canadian oversight and Canadian Jurisdiction. What it probably also means is that an FBI agent for example can take an active role in an investigation and participate in any arrest.

However from my understanding the arrested person is still going to have to go through the Canadian Justice and extradition system.

Plus this is only dealing currently with U.S. law enforcement and Canadian law enforcement in a maritime role. Phase three which involves land hasn't been defined or discussed yet.

Maritime enforcement is a good place to test the program to see if its workable.

But I don't see anything where they're grabbing futives throwing them in the back of a truck and driving them over the border.

Or that DEA or FBI agents are working with autonomy outside of Canadian laws and busting into houses.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:02 AM   #26
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I would quote you CaptainCruch, but goddamn thats a long post haha. I guess all I'll add is 3 years is indeed a very long time. Harper could make our economy the strongest in the world by then and he's a shoo in. He could piss off most of the country, but still keep power because of the other parties ineptitude. The world is strange like that, so who knows right? Regardless, 2015 should be an interesting election.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:03 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch View Post
I don't think that U.S. law enforcement is going to just "roll into Canada" and work as seperate entities. As I read this its allowing U.S. law enforcement to get certified to work in Canada and vice versa, but I don't think it allows them to work under U.S. law. They have to act under Canadian law with Canadian oversight and Canadian Jurisdiction. What it probably also means is that an FBI agent for example can take an active role in an investigation and participate in any arrest.

However from my understanding the arrested person is still going to have to go through the Canadian Justice and extradition system.

Plus this is only dealing currently with U.S. law enforcement and Canadian law enforcement in a maritime role. Phase three which involves land hasn't been defined or discussed yet.

Maritime enforcement is a good place to test the program to see if its workable.

But I don't see anything where they're grabbing futives throwing them in the back of a truck and driving them over the border.

Or that DEA or FBI agents are working with autonomy outside of Canadian laws and busting into houses.
The DEA already is conducting independent investigations of Canadians on Canadian soil out of their office here in Vancouver.

Mark Emery was arrested by Canadian law enforcement serving an American arrest warrant. Prior to that, the federal and provincial governments were all too happy to administer and receive taxation on his legal business.

The process for his extradition and charges began in the late 90s, when American Navy criminal investigators began monitoring and conducting business with Emery. This is more than a decade ago, that American military police had active and ongoing investigations in Vancouver, independent of local police.

This move is in direct response to the continuing shift of public opinion in this province regarding marijuana laws and enforcement. 5 former mayors, a former premiere, association of physicians, tribal chiefs, former cops and police chiefs, federal drug investigators, Senators, MPs and the like have publicly put their names out there as supporters of drug law reform.

These two things absolutely go hand in hand.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:07 AM   #28
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^ Exactly (to CaptainCrunch)

I don't see an issue with agents coming over the border coming to aid local authorities, operating under local law.

If an FBI agent (or whatever) came into Canada and arrested a criminal, it would be for the criminal as if they had been arrested by the RCMP.

There shouldn't be any "slippery slope" here, just more effective law enforcement.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:14 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch View Post
I don't think that U.S. law enforcement is going to just "roll into Canada" and work as seperate entities. As I read this its allowing U.S. law enforcement to get certified to work in Canada and vice versa, but I don't think it allows them to work under U.S. law. They have to act under Canadian law with Canadian oversight and Canadian Jurisdiction. What it probably also means is that an FBI agent for example can take an active role in an investigation and participate in any arrest.
I'm pretty sure the FBI can already take an active roll in investigation, provided consent with Canada. I'm fine with that. My speculation that this would lead to the US working as somewhat of a seperate identity is based on the idea that this is a news article, and a new bill being drafted. It seems suspect to me that there would be the need for a bill if the future of the deal is the same with what currently goes on.

Quote:
However from my understanding the arrested person is still going to have to go through the Canadian Justice and extradition system.
I would hope so, and I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Quote:
Plus this is only dealing currently with U.S. law enforcement and Canadian law enforcement in a maritime role. Phase three which involves land hasn't been defined or discussed yet.
It's the lack of details that bother me at this point. But yeah, I'm jumping the gun a bit to make all these assumptions of jurisdiction. I'll keep a cautious stance, but wait until everything is released before having a harder stance.

Quote:
Maritime enforcement is a good place to test the program to see if its workable.
The sea and land are totally different. They'll operate on different parameters, so I don't think it will be a good test to see if it's a viable solution.

Quote:
But I don't see anything where they're grabbing futives throwing them in the back of a truck and driving them over the border.

Or that DEA or FBI agents are working with autonomy outside of Canadian laws and busting into houses.
No, but I never said that either (bolded part.) But I did allude to them working with autonomy, which is only a baseless speculation. Obviously they would need to work with the Canadian government after their suspect is apprehended. My concern isn't with suspects that they've been tracking for a long time and are developing a case against if they're working with Canada. It's the idea that they would use this bill as a streamlined way to send agents or police into Canada without having to channel their resources through Canadian agents intially. As in, I think this is a step forward to the US trying to have the ability to work autonomously within Canada.

Again though, only pure (and probably paranoid) speculation. More details are definitely needed.
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:56 PM   #30
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I highly doubt U.S. agents don't operate in the country already.
I'm sure they do too, but, at least I don't legaly have to open my door for them when they come knocking.
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