EU Elections

[Azure]

Originally Posted by chemgear

It's a vicious cycle. Cut to get budgets back on track because you have been overspending for years and people won't bail you out if you keep overspending. But when you cut you drive people out of the country, destabilize the government and you slow/get negative growth. That then reduces what you get in revenue so you have no hope to get enough money to pay back the bailout terms and you fall further behind.

It'll be very interesting to watch these next few years. At some point, I can see the German government doing a lot of navel gazing as these countries keep missing their targets - Merkel has a good majority so far but I recall it getting more and more strained as this spiral continues.

I don't have much sympathy for them. Retirement age at 60? In 2012? Are you kidding me? People are living longer, not shorter. Why would you lower the retirement age again?

Europe is like the entitled little child right now that is bitching because all its 'free' stuff is being taken away because mommy and daddy went broke.

[Azure]

At home, Hollande has pledged to tax the very rich at 75 percent of their income, an idea that proved wildly popular among the majority of people who don't make nearly that much. But the measure would only bring in a relatively small amount to the budget.

Hollande wants to modify one of Sarkozy's key reforms, over the retirement age, to allow some people to retire at 60 instead of 62. He also plans to increase spending in a range of sectors and wants to ease France off its dependence on nuclear energy. He also favours legalizing euthanasia and gay marriage

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/stor...tion-vote.html

Apparently France still has a lot of morons. Things don't change much. Not that the alternative was any better.

Cutting nuclear power? Why exactly? Because the ignorant 18-25 crowd doesn't like it? Are you kidding me?

Also nice to see the baby boomer generation fking up that country too with the pledge to lower the retirement age again.

[CaptainCrunch]

Those ultra rich people that they want to tax at 75% have the money to take their fortune and leave their countries. I get that the wealthy should pay higher txes but the stupidity of the punsh the rich movement that's happening because of populist politics is moronic.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Those ultra rich people that they want to tax at 75% have the money to take their fortune and leave their countries. I get that the wealthy should pay higher txes but the stupidity of the punsh the rich movement that's happening because of populist politics is moronic.

Yep. The wealthy should pay more taxes, but not 75% more taxes.

I don't have anything against a progressive tax system, and I really like the flat tax as well.

But 75%? Why would any wealthy person stay in France and pay those rates when they can live anywhere else, and pay much less?

I can't recall if it was Germany or Britain, but in one of those countries they upped the tax percentage on rich people, and it didn't result in much extra revenue.

Taxes should be fair and according to the needs of the nation. Simply taxing the rich more to justify your ridiculous spending problem is not a solution to any problem. But like I said, apparently France still has a bunch of morons that vote.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Azure

Yep. The wealthy should pay more taxes, but not 75% more taxes.

I don't have anything against a progressive tax system, and I really like the flat tax as well.

But 75%? Why would any wealthy person stay in France and pay those rates when they can live anywhere else, and pay much less?

I can't recall if it was Germany or Britain, but in one of those countries they upped the tax percentage on rich people, and it didn't result in much extra revenue.

Taxes should be fair and according to the needs of the nation. Simply taxing the rich more to justify your ridiculous spending problem is not a solution to any problem. But like I said, apparently France still has a bunch of morons that vote.

It doesn't make a diffence because there are relatively few rich people on a population base. One of the biggest revenue problems, whether its in Europe on NA, is that there are a lot of people in the middle class that aren't paying their tax bills at all. governments need to collect taxes from everyone.

Not just focus on stupid punative class ware are against the higher earners because it gains more votes

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Those ultra rich people that they want to tax at 75% have the money to take their fortune and leave their countries. I get that the wealthy should pay higher txes but the stupidity of the punsh the rich movement that's happening because of populist politics is moronic.

Just out of curiosity, do we know of any examples of this? Many people repeat this claim, but I don't know of many examples wherein a wealthy / ultra-rich businessperson (or what have you) moved to another country because of the tax rates*. I'm trying hard to name one example, but I'm having trouble coming up with any.

I know I would never move to, say, Hong Kong just because taxes were low. Would you? No offense to Hong Kong (or wherever), but it's just not my country or home. Do we think a few rich businessmen from Nice are going to move to Miami? I really, really doubt it.


* I'm excluding cases wherein people effectively move into lower tax rate countries as an ancillary effect of escaping a repressive country. I think we can agree that escaping a totalitarian state is the primary driver for such people, not their tax rates.


Edit:

A corollary of this scenario may have already provided our answer: Did the wealthy and ultra-rich migrate back into the USA in the early 80s?

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't know of specifics on a personal level, however on a business level you see businesses invest outside of their home countries because of tax and labour rates. How many countries have a 75% punative tax rate?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Just out of curiosity, do we know of any examples of this? Many people repeat this claim, but I don't know of many examples wherein a wealthy / ultra-rich businessperson (or what have you) moved to another country because of the tax rates*. I'm trying hard to name one example, but I'm having trouble coming up with any.

I know I would never move to, say, Hong Kong just because taxes were low. Would you? No offense to Hong Kong (or wherever), but it's just not my country or home. Do we think a few rich businessmen from Nice are going to move to Miami? I really, really doubt it.


* I'm excluding cases wherein people effectively move into lower tax rate countries as an ancillary effect of escaping a repressive country. I think we can agree that escaping a totalitarian state is the primary driver for such people, not their tax rates.

Personally I would move in a second, once it became clear that I was being punished for being successful.

And not just personally.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't know of specifics on a personal level, however on a business level you see businesses invest outside of their home countries because of tax and labour rates. How many countries have a 75% punative tax rate?

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Personally I would move in a second, once it became clear that I was being punished for being successful.

And not just personally.

Well, the business thing is not supportive of your contention. Those people stay in the country, but just move the money around. If someone told me I could get 50% interest on my USD by moving my bank account to Hong Kong, I'd do that.

But to be clear, you know of no examples except yourself.

In the late edit I brought up the US because the tax rate in the 70s was very high, and came down in the 80s. Did we ever hear stories of a number of businessmen flying back into the US now that Reagan reduced the taxes?

All in all, it sounds to me like we can aptly describe the "rich will move" proposition as Ivory-grade BS. Not 100% pure BS, but 99 and 44/100th BS.

[Knut]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Just out of curiosity, do we know of any examples of this? Many people repeat this claim, but I don't know of many examples wherein a wealthy / ultra-rich businessperson (or what have you) moved to another country because of the tax rates*. I'm trying hard to name one example, but I'm having trouble coming up with any.

I know I would never move to, say, Hong Kong just because taxes were low. Would you? No offense to Hong Kong (or wherever), but it's just not my country or home. Do we think a few rich businessmen from Nice are going to move to Miami? I really, really doubt it.


* I'm excluding cases wherein people effectively move into lower tax rate countries as an ancillary effect of escaping a repressive country. I think we can agree that escaping a totalitarian state is the primary driver for such people, not their tax rates.


Edit:

A corollary of this scenario may have already provided our answer: Did the wealthy and ultra-rich migrate back into the USA in the early 80s?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Kamprad#section_5

The founder of IKEA has lived in Switzerland since the 70s instead of Sweden.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Hesla

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Kamprad#section_5

The founder of IKEA has lived in Switzerland since the 70s instead of Sweden.

So we have 1 example.

[wpgflamesfan]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

So we have 1 example.

Old article but here's 650 more...

The Guardian has traced more than 650 directors of British companies who give their current address as Monaco, and the top 10 residents there with UK interests alone control family assets worth more than £13.5bn.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...agenews.uknews

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

So we have 1 example.

The tax rate here in Australia goes to 50% on high earners...it definitely comes into play when we recruit people, however, it basically just inflates everything.

Ex: Instead of paying a manager $150k like in Canada they pay him $250k here in Aus. Same work and same responsibility, just the number is higher.

Taxes and wages are just numbers...the position in life relative to everyone else stays the same. If something comes along to disrupt my position in life (dictator, targeted taxes, natural disaster) I'll pick up shop and move somewhere else.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by wpgflamesfan

Old article but here's 650 more...



http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...agenews.uknews

There we go... I was waiting for Monaco.

If Monaco is the standard, then I think we can again affirm that the "rich will move" is a canard. This is a municipality with zero income tax and is not tenable as a country; hence it's existence as a tax haven and casino joint.

If we're advocating that our countries become Monaco, then we have bigger problems than I feared.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

The tax rate here in Australia goes to 50% on high earners...it definitely comes into play when we recruit people, however, it basically just inflates everything.

Ex: Instead of paying a manager $150k like in Canada they pay him $250k here in Aus. Same work and same responsibility, just the number is higher.

Taxes and wages are just numbers...the position in life relative to everyone else stays the same. If something comes along to disrupt my position in life (dictator, targeted taxes, natural disaster) I'll pick up shop and move somewhere else.

I don't disagree that it impacts people's propensity to move to another country for employment.

That's very distinct from a native Australian deciding that the latest tax hike is too high and moving to another country. Also note that the wealthy and the ultra-rich, which were the focus of the initial proposition, are not going to be moving for employment. They have no such necessity.

[Slava]

When the tax rate gets too high at a certain income level people don't move. They just suddenly make less income, so if the taxes increase at $250k you just see a surprising number of people earning $249,999.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Slava

When the tax rate gets too high at a certain income level people don't move. They just suddenly make less income, so if the taxes increase at $250k you just see a surprising number of people earning $249,999.

?

Is that just a way to illustrate that high income earners aren't very smart and impose financial penalties on themselves because they don't understand marginal tax rates?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

?

Is that just a way to illustrate that high income earners aren't very smart and impose financial penalties on themselves because they don't understand marginal tax rates?

No, its just what happens. Its a case where people leave money in corporations, split with spouses, children, etc. in order to file below that threshold. There isn't anything subversive or anything, its just business. It happens in Canada and thats just the way things go; government increases tax and yet collects less.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Just out of curiosity, do we know of any examples of this? Many people repeat this claim, but I don't know of many examples wherein a wealthy / ultra-rich businessperson (or what have you) moved to another country because of the tax rates*. I'm trying hard to name one example, but I'm having trouble coming up with any.

I know I would never move to, say, Hong Kong just because taxes were low. Would you? No offense to Hong Kong (or wherever), but it's just not my country or home. Do we think a few rich businessmen from Nice are going to move to Miami? I really, really doubt it.


* I'm excluding cases wherein people effectively move into lower tax rate countries as an ancillary effect of escaping a repressive country. I think we can agree that escaping a totalitarian state is the primary driver for such people, not their tax rates.


Edit:

A corollary of this scenario may have already provided our answer: Did the wealthy and ultra-rich migrate back into the USA in the early 80s?

I suppose the most famous examples would be the Beatles and Stones who all moved out of the UK in the mid sixties, ironically to France, to escape the UK's crushing wealth tax.
In the case of todays EU it would be even easier.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

?

Is that just a way to illustrate that high income earners aren't very smart and impose financial penalties on themselves because they don't understand marginal tax rates?

If someone makes 500k a year I'm pretty sure they can afford to find an accountant that will help set up tax shelters somewhere. If I'm a high income earner and I'm about to get taxed 75% I'll pay a pretty large sum of money to find any loophole possible to avoid paying tax. I haven't seen the legislation and I don't know anything about European tax laws, so that's just my opinion.

I highly doubt people with that kind of money are going to sit back and say "well this sucks. Here's my 375k in tax because this government deserves it".