Political Correctness Run Amok

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Yeah, and whether they are religous schools or not, they should be following the state approved curriculum, which had better include mentions of both dinosaurs and computers, cause, you know they're real things.

Edit: If you choose to put your kid into an environment where they don't teach concrete scientific facts, hence willfully keeping your child in a state of ignorance, then you've officially given up your right to complain when your child is being confused by mundane topics that are common knowledge to every other child in elementry school.

You're confusing issues here, it's not about what is being taught, it's about testing bias. That is a real thing. This isn't some political correctness driven initiative. The goal here is to accurately assess the performance of students, removing any type of bias is important to achieving that goal.

I agree completely that people who don't expose their children to certain things are doing their child a great disservice, but those people exist and you can't expect an entity that works for ALL citizens just disregard some because they feel like it.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by valo403

You're confusing issues here, it's not about what is being taught, it's about testing bias. That is a real thing. This isn't some political correctness driven initiative. The goal here is to accurately assess the performance of students, removing any type of bias is important to achieving that goal.

I agree completely that people who don't expose their children to certain things are doing their child a great disservice, but those people exist and you can't expect an entity that works for ALL citizens just disregard some because they feel like it.

I would agree that some words could create a cultural bias, but when New York's list is more than twice the size as other states, it sounds like they are starting to slide down the slippery slope. They will never accommodate everyone. Eventually you just can't give a crap about everyone who might get offended and distracted because they can't remove their own dislike of other people's cultures. That's what it really comes down to. It's not like the concept of a "birthday" or dinosaurs is so foreign that anyone would be disadvantaged because the word was used. It comes down to them being offended because they have a low level of tolerance. It should be a case of "tough tits", but instead they are being catered to.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by valo403

You're confusing issues here, it's not about what is being taught, it's about testing bias. That is a real thing. This isn't some political correctness driven initiative. The goal here is to accurately assess the performance of students, removing any type of bias is important to achieving that goal.

I agree completely that people who don't expose their children to certain things are doing their child a great disservice, but those people exist and you can't expect an entity that works for ALL citizens just disregard some because they feel like it.

And what I'm saying is that it's impossible to remove all bias.
I gave examples about monkey bars, trains, and Cleveland that are just as valid as computers and dinosarus, so why are the testers still allowed to talk about Cleveland?

The only way to remove all bias is to remove ALL context, wich is impossible, you can however reduce it by removing culturally specific context (such as asking a question the requires knowing Christmas is on Dec 25th), which is fine, however, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who can put togeter any sort of rational argument as to why dinosarus and computers are cultrually specific.

[Locke]

Testing bias aside, people have to learn how to deal with distractions, its part of life.

No employer is going to say; 'No, its cool that you totally screwed up that important deal, you were distracted.'

Distractions? They're part of the deal.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Locke

Testing bias aside, people have to learn how to deal with distractions, its part of life.

No employer is going to say; 'No, its cool that you totally screwed up that important deal, you were distracted.'

Distractions? They're part of the deal.

Ahh, but what if they were distarcted because there was a picture of a dinosaur on their computer? That seems like a reasonable excuse to me.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who can put togeter any sort of rational argument as to why dinosarus and computers are cultrually specific.

The only thing I can think of with computers is that not all kids have them at home so it is somewhat of an economic status symbol. If they see the word, they will think about being poor, which in turn will make them sad... and then hey, it's their fault that they couldn't finish the math test.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

And what I'm saying is that it's impossible to remove all bias.
I gave examples about monkey bars, trains, and Cleveland that are just as valid as computers and dinosarus, so why are the testers still allowed to talk about Cleveland?

The only way to remove all bias is to remove ALL context, wich is impossible, you can however reduce it by removing culturally specific context (such as asking a question the requires knowing Christmas is on Dec 25th), which is fine, however, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who can put togeter any sort of rational argument as to why dinosarus and computers are cultrually specific.

Actually those examples aren't at all as valid as they are personal experiences, not documented cultural values. You can't tailor things to individual personal experiences, but you can certainly do so with known cultural issues.

I don't disagree that some of this is probably going too far, what I disagree with is the characterization of this as some sort of PC agenda thing.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by valo403

Actually those examples aren't at all as valid as they are personal experiences, not documented cultural values. You can't tailor things to individual personal experiences, but you can certainly do so with known cultural issues.

I don't disagree that some of this is probably going too far, what I disagree with is the characterization of this as some sort of PC agenda thing.

I think the original idea was to remove cultural bias, but looking at how extreme it has become, it seems fairly evident that some PC extremists have hi-jacked it for their own agenda.

At least I think so, because I am not sure what the word hi-jacked means. It was too negative to teach me about.

[Gozer]

The words aren't avoided for being negative, they're avoided for being unbalanced.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by valo403

It's not about offending people, despite the OP's best efforts (doesn't help that your source is the Post) to make it seem to be the case. The point is to create a generic test that doesn't play to any cultural bias.

Ok, so dinosaur, home computers, disease, and birthday have a cultural bias? As they say on Saturday Night Live(now there is a cultural bias!!) Now, come on, Rrreally!!

Sorry, I just don't buy it, did they not miss April fools by 4 days......

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by valo403

Actually those examples aren't at all as valid as they are personal experiences, not documented cultural values. You can't tailor things to individual personal experiences, but you can certainly do so with known cultural issues.

I don't disagree that some of this is probably going too far, what I disagree with is the characterization of this as some sort of PC agenda thing.

Well I think just about anyone could come up with a reason why monkey bars and Cleveland are cultrual biases, just as much as computers or dinosaurs.

Black people might not like the use of mokey bars, because monkey is sometimes used as a racial slur towards black people.

There is a pretty strong rivalry between Pittsburgh and Cleveland, so if Cleveland gets mentioned, kids from Pittsburgh would be upset that their rival is seen as better than their home town.

You see, it's pretty easy to justify just about anything as a cultrual bias.
If it something that requires knowledge, such as the date of Christmas, then I would agree that is something that can be fairly argued for removal.
If it's something like dinosaurs which are being removed becasue creationists might be upset because they suggest evolution (though i'm not sure why dinosarus suggest evolution any more than any other animal), then that is ridiculous.

[blankall]

As silly as it sounds, I can kind of see why they are doing this. The whole point of the tests is to be as objective as possible. If a kid wastes 30 seconds or gets flustered, because you've used a word that inspires certain emotions or one that he doesn't totally understand, he's at a huge advantage.

In the case of these tests the words are just framing for underlying math/logic problems.

This really isn't about being PC. It's about accomplishing the goal of being as objective as possible.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Okay, but where do you stop?

I agree that this might go a lot further than I would have, but the concept is sound.

Testing has not been fair to all students and there are lots of studies to show this. This isn't some idiotic parents council coming up with some random idea, this is actual peer reviewed research that supports this stuff.

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

That's the point we're trying to make. Banning the mentioning of subjects line Halloween, dinosaurs, because it might offend some people is just silly.

Any test question I have had that "mentioned" something, often requires that you have a knowledge of that term. Either that term is part of the curriculum or you really shouldn't be testing on it. the example of "3 dinosaurs having 6 pieces of candy" as a math problem is ridiculous.

I will repeat, that some terms, as part of the ciriculum, are included here and I don't necessarily agree with their exclusion, like "evolution" for example, and that is really the only place where being 'PC' really is happening here.

[Ryan Coke]

Yeah, trying to make standardized testing as neutral as possible makes sense. I think there is plenty of PC stuff that is stupid, but this really isn't an example of that IMO. Valo403 gets it here.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by blankall

As silly as it sounds, I can kind of see why they are doing this. The whole point of the tests is to be as objective as possible. If a kid wastes 30 seconds or gets flustered, because you've used a word that inspires certain emotions or one that he doesn't totally understand, he's at a huge advantage.

In the case of these tests the words are just framing for underlying math/logic problems.

This really isn't about being PC. It's about accomplishing the goal of being as objective as possible.

Yeah, but that's the point most of us are making.
If you put words like dinosaur, or computer on the list then it's pretty easy to come up with a reason to exclude ANY word or subject.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Yeah, but that's the point most of us are making.
If you put words like dinosaur, or computer on the list then it's pretty easy to come up with a reason to exclude ANY word or subject.

Is it though? From your perspective. You might not agree with it, but a large proportion of Americans don't believe in evolution.

And noone was banning the word "Computer".

Also on the list of topics that companies are asked to stay away from are “creatures from outer space,” homes with swimming pools, computers, vermin, junk food, abuse, terrorism, divorce, any references to disease and holidays.”

They were banning references to homes with computers. Lower income children might not understand the idea of having a computer in the home. We aren't talking about fully grown rational adults. We are talking about children, who often know little about the world outside their own homes.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Any test question I have had that "mentioned" something, often requires that you have a knowledge of that term. Either that term is part of the curriculum or you really shouldn't be testing on it. the example of "3 dinosaurs having 6 pieces of candy" as a math problem is ridiculous.

I will repeat, that some terms, as part of the ciriculum, are included here and I don't necessarily agree with their exclusion, like "evolution" for example, and that is really the only place where being 'PC' really is happening here.

To the bolded part I would disagree.

Vlad leaves the town of Minsk heading to Leningrard 1000 miles away. He has 10 gallons of borscht with him.
If he eats 1 gallon of borscht every hour, how fast must the train travel to ensure Vlad does not run out of borscht before reaching Leningrad.

To answer that question you don't have to have any idea who Vlad is, where Minsk, or Leningrad are, or what the hell borscht is. Some kids might get flustred because they've never heard of those places, but no matter where the train is going to of from, or what Vlad is eating, you could say the exact same thing. Finally, any kid who is getting flustered because they don't recognize specific names used in a math problem, clearly don't understand the finer points of word problems, which is exactly what this question is testing.

To the last paragraph you posted, that's the point we're all making.
We've said that this is political correctness run amok, specifically examples like computer and dinosaur, which you say you agree with. So what exactly are you arguing about? You think parts of the list are silly, just like the rest of us.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by blankall

Is it though? From your perspective. You might not agree with it, but a large proportion of Americans don't believe in evolution.

And noone was banning the word "Computer".


They were banning references to homes with computers. Lower income children might not understand the idea of having a computer in the home. We aren't talking about fully grown rational adults. We are talking about children, who often know little about the world outside their own homes.

Yeah, unless the guy who wrote that article doesn't understand basic grammar, that last bit isn't a list of things you aren't allowed to talk about homes having.

If he's talking about a list of things you aren't allowed to mention in homes, it the and would have been before "homes with" and the "and" before "disease" would have been an "or".

What is written there means you aren't allowed to mention computers period.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

To the bolded part I would disagree.

Vlad leaves the town of Minsk heading to Leningrard 1000 miles away. He has 10 gallons of borscht with him.
If he eats 1 gallon of borscht every hour, how fast must the train travel to ensure Vlad does not run out of borscht before reaching Leningrad.

To answer that question you don't have to have any idea who Vlad is, where Minsk, or Leningrad are, or what the hell borscht is. Some kids might get flustred because they've never heard of those places, but no matter where the train is going to of from, or what Vlad is eating, you could say the exact same thing. Finally, any kid who is getting flustered because they don't recognize specific names used in a math problem, clearly don't understand the finer points of word problems, which is exactly what this question is testing.

To the last paragraph you posted, that's the point we're all making.
We've said that this is political correctness run amok, specifically examples like computer and dinosaur, which you say you agree with. So what exactly are you arguing about? You think parts of the list are silly, just like the rest of us.

No, you misunderstood.

I think that evolution being not included could easily have stemmed from them not wanting to deal with fallout over it being allowed in (as something that is covered in school) compared to religion, which is not taught in school. I was guessing that they could have attempted to be PC with these particular exclusions. In no other case do I think that the motivation could have possibly been due to an attempt to be PC.

That is just my personal suspicion though.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by blankall

Is it though? From your perspective. You might not agree with it, but a large proportion of Americans don't believe in evolution.

Yes, it is.
Go ahead, throw out any random topic, and I'll bet I can come up with just as valid an excuse not to mention it on a test as "computer".

As for a large portion of Americans not believing in evoltuion, so what?
They're wrong. Just because a bunch of people have chosen to ignore a mountain of evidence for something doesn't mean it isn't true.

A whole bunch of people in the US don't believe black people should have equal rights, does that mean we should avoid references to Martin Luthor King Jr becasue of this?