U.S. Army Sergeant goes on a 16 person killing spree

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think Kipling was making comment on how barbaric it was to fall into the Afghans hands more than anything else, suicide was the better of the options.

Are you referring to Rudyard Kipling who died in 1936?

You may be right, as it applies today. Obviously respect for one's enemy has deteriorated with time, especially with racial and religious differences, and capture brings much less hope.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

At this point there is probably nothing more that can be done in Afghanistan, any good will for example that the Canadian's had gained as a representative of the West is now effectively gone, pissed away over the last 6 months by continued blunders by the American's and a corrupt and two faced Afghanistan government.

Its probably time to get the rest of the Canadian's out of there, its probably now time for the American's to withdraw and let the Kharzi government stand or fall on its own.

A friend of min just came back from Afghanistan where he'd been acting in an Afghan Army training role and, when I asked him about his outlook on the Country and his level of optimism for the conflict, he said it's a complete s**t show and a waste of time and energy. He feels he accomplished nothing of lasting value and is just happy he and his whole squad are out of there.

This was the one war I supported, but it's time everyone cut their losses and moved on.

[VladtheImpaler]

Well, it's a start............................................. ........too soon?

[speede5]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Well, it's a start............................................. ........too soon?

No, too ignorant.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think Kipling was making comment on how barbaric it was to fall into the Afghans hands more than anything else, suicide was the better of the options.

The Soviet soldier had an incredible level of fear of being captured in Afghanistan as their treatment as a prisoner would be incredibly short and brutal and in their minds inhuman (Again going back to dehumanizing your enemy so you can kill them easier).

But the Afghan record and Islam's record of their treatment of their enemy prsoners is not one of compassion.

[SeeBass]

I find it interesting that we look for deeper meanings and reasons for this act when it is committed by "our side".

I can't recall ever reading an article about why a certain person was attacking "our side" though. I don't think I have ever read an article about a rebel killing US soldiers because of an act of what the NATO forces have done to provoke it. Can you imagine an article in Time magazine about a rebel that killed a US soldier cause 2 days earlier they dropped a bomb on his house and killed his family.

I was all for going in there and getting AQ and getting out, but I was never for building a nation, for people who can't count, for a generation.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I don't doubt that the damage could be massive, but would not a court marshal and imprisonment, in our minds, be admitting the individual was of sound enough mind to realize what he was doing?

Perhaps you are right in that with the probable huge difference in the way we think from the Afgans because of poor education etc.(something we are trying to correct), they may not appreciate that someone who commits such an act, may be doing so in the psychotic state.

And perhaps with this, coupled with the other events, it may be enough to seriously make it impossible to get the majority of Afgans onside, in appreciating our objectives in being there. However, as an optimist, I hope you are wrong, as it would leave the country in a hell of a mess, and all our efforts would be for nothing...perhaps even having to return at a later time for our own protection.

I would very much doubt that the Afghans as a whole even have a concept of mental illness let alone a understanding of it.

Right now word is being spread and to an extent exageratted by the Taliban in villages across that country until it becomes a mass slaughter by the whole U.S. army with Satan in the lead.

With the Army urination scandal, the Koran burning and this, there's an escalation of rage that's happening among the common folks in the tribal lands especially, but with the rank and rile city folks.

Add to that that the tribes have a real twisted honor system and a real highly developed notion of wronging and revenge and your never going to get them on your side again.

They just basically handed most of the country over tot he Taliban.

Add to this that the American's have no choice but to run this guy through the Court Marshal system and the burden of proof on the mental health defense is incredibly high.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

I find it interesting that we look for deeper meanings and reasons for this act when it is committed by "our side".

I can't recall ever reading an article about why a certain person was attacking "our side" though. I don't think I have ever read an article about a rebel killing US soldiers because of an act of what the NATO forces have done to provoke it. Can you imagine an article in Time magazine about a rebel that killed a US soldier cause 2 days earlier they dropped a bomb on his house and killed his family.

I was all for going in there and getting AQ and getting out, but I was never for building a nation, for people who can't count, for a generation.

Simply because this was an act outside of the conduct of a solider. He wasn't following orders at all, its far different. On top of that "the other side" is completely different, and we usually have a pretty good idea of why they do what they do, what we have trouble with is the degree's that they do it.

Its funny because multiple people have said even on this board that the cure for extremism is with education and lifting people out of poverty and that's what the Canadian's and American's tried to do in Afghanistan with the nation building, they also tried it in Iraq, but its becoming apparent that that line of thinking is failing. Even with attempts to rebuild schools and infrasture in those countries they're still fertile recruiting grounds for extreme hate and terrorism.

To me there's a massive cultural divide that will never ever be bridged because its like hoping into a time machine and traveling back to the 1400's and trying to hold a civilized conversation with people back then.

I think we're going to find that the only solution is to withdraw from those nations, give them no foreign aid and ramp up your intelligence services so that you can continue to try to keep these groups unbalanced while killing their leaders in significant numbers to force them to use inexperienced leaders.

[OutOfTheCube]

And he was so close to getting a nuke...

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Simply because this was an act outside of the conduct of a solider. He wasn't following orders at all, its far different. On top of that "the other side" is completely different, and we usually have a pretty good idea of why they do what they do, what we have trouble with is the degree's that they do it.

Its funny because multiple people have said even on this board that the cure for extremism is with education and lifting people out of poverty and that's what the Canadian's and American's tried to do in Afghanistan with the nation building, they also tried it in Iraq, but its becoming apparent that that line of thinking is failing. Even with attempts to rebuild schools and infrasture in those countries they're still fertile recruiting grounds for extreme hate and terrorism.

To me there's a massive cultural divide that will never ever be bridged because its like hoping into a time machine and traveling back to the 1400's and trying to hold a civilized conversation with people back then.

I think we're going to find that the only solution is to withdraw from those nations, give them no foreign aid and ramp up your intelligence services so that you can continue to try to keep these groups unbalanced while killing their leaders in significant numbers to force them to use inexperienced leaders.

I appreciate what you are saying, but didn't that all change to some extent when things came closer to home, with the bombings in New York. IMO, to even vaguely consider going down the nuclear path is 1000 times more dangerous, and I have lived through the entire cold war.

Surely we have to have some hope that this world can be changed for the better, without continually building rage in the majority of people who think and act different than us.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

For some reason I read these lines to the tune of "The Band Played Waltzing Mathilda" ... it completely works, too.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I appreciate what you are saying, but didn't that all change to some extent when things came closer to home, with the bombings in New York. IMO, to even vaguely consider going down the nuclear path is 1000 times more dangerous, and I have lived through the entire cold war.

Surely we have to have some hope that this world can be changed for the better, without continually building rage in the majority of people who think and act different than us.

I don't have enough faith in humanity to ever see the different societies reach common ground.

The one key difference though is the educational level and the human link.

After 9/11 there was a massive backlash against Islamic countries, there was major anger in the states and images of Palestinians for example dancing in the streets didn't help things.

There was a strong nuke them all sentiment happening in the civilized world, but at the heart of it, our society has added a great deal of rational behind it due to education, the lack of a anarchaic honor system and the high level of communication.

If 9/11 had happened in the 50's or 60's Afghanistan could very well be a cratered moonscape right now.

But Afghanistan doesn't have these advantages, for the most part, they are poorly educated, news transmission occurs through Whispers and rumors and they are a passionate people ruled over by a tribal honor code that won't let the cycle of anger stop, they're also massively intimidated by the Taliban who use religion to whip up angry sentiments.

In my heart of hearts, I don't believe that there will ever be peace between the West and the Middle East, and at some point that powder keg will blow.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by Dion

Do you trust the Afghani justice system?

He's in their country so it shouldn't matter. He knows the laws and if the laws state they publically hang him then so be it.

[Lt.Spears]

I cant imagine the stuff Soliders have to deal with, i really feel sorry for each and every one of them.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by puckluck

He's in their country so it shouldn't matter. He knows the laws and if the laws state they publically hang him then so be it.

So you would be ok with a Canadian facing a flogging in a Asian country for spitting gum on the sidewalk (Think its the Phillapines), or a Canadian facing life in prison for carrying an ounce of drugs in the same country?

Also, its not like the Afghan system of justice is not corrupt and is religious based and not based on a common rule of law.

Plus it doesn't sound like Islamic courts recognize mental illness as a defence, what if this guy is certifiable or suffering from PTS?

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by Dion

Do you trust the Afghani justice system?

Do the Afghanis trust the American justice system?

And this is exactly how "terrorists" are born.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So you would be ok with a Canadian facing a flogging in a Asian country for spitting gum on the sidewalk (Think its the Phillapines), or a Canadian facing life in prison for carrying an ounce of drugs in the same country?

Also, its not like the Afghan system of justice is not corrupt and is religious based and not based on a common rule of law.

Plus it doesn't sound like Islamic courts recognize mental illness as a defence, what if this guy is certifiable or suffering from PTS?

Nobody said the Afghan justice system is perfect or even ok, but he broke Afghan laws did he not? And those other scenarios, yes I would agree that their punishment would be ok because you should always know the laws before you enter a country. Ignorance shouldn't be an excuse no matter how backwards the laws are. Don't like the laws, don't enter the country.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So you would be ok with a Canadian facing a flogging in a Asian country for spitting gum on the sidewalk (Think its the Phillapines), or a Canadian facing life in prison for carrying an ounce of drugs in the same country?

Also, its not like the Afghan system of justice is not corrupt and is religious based and not based on a common rule of law.

Plus it doesn't sound like Islamic courts recognize mental illness as a defence, what if this guy is certifiable or suffering from PTS?

The justice may not be fair from our perspective, but it would probably be the best at satisfying the Afghani people.

Why does he escape facing the laws of the land just because he's in the military? He wasn't following any kind of military directive, and he killed civilians.


The US should pull out of the middle east, and keep their nose out of there. That they have their nose in there at all is a cause of a lot of the tensions. The US think they are the protectors/police of the world, and it rubs many the wrong way, especially to some counties in the middle east.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by speede5

No, too ignorant.

Sorry, but I feel absolutely zero sympathy for the Afghans. A lot of sympathy for the soldier. No doubt that is warped, but honest.

[tjinaz]

The justice may not be fair from our perspective, but it would probably be the best at satisfying the Afghani people.

Why does he escape facing the laws of the land just because he's in the military? He wasn't following any kind of military directive, and he killed civilians.


The US should pull out of the middle east, and keep their nose out of there. That they have their nose in there at all is a cause of a lot of the tensions. The US think they are the protectors/police of the world, and it rubs many the wrong way, especially to some counties in the middle east.

US should go isolationist and stay out of all "foreign entanglements" like they did prior to WWII. It is a thankless job and waste of US taxpayer money. Let some other countries step up and answer the call when things get out of hand. Plus with all the new wars US companies can make money selling to both sides like the Russians and Chinese do. Stop checking China in Asia and just let the Arabs run amok. The world will keep itself stable.