CA versus Law

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by CISSP

My advice, if you're looking at Law, and you want to pracitce in Canada, stay in Canada. a 2nd tier Canadian Law School is better locally than the best schools in AUS, or UK.

First, that's not true, if you studied law at Oxford people here will interview you. Second, what the hell is a 2nd tier Canadian law school? Western? Seriously there's basically no stratification among law schools in this country. A U of A grad is no better or worse off than a U of S or UBC grad. I have no idea about Thomson River, but outside of that, every school is pretty much on a level playing field though they may excel in certain areas.

Originally Posted by valo403

I'd agree that any of the established Canadian schools will give you a great education, but the top 2-3 schools (Osgoode, UT and I guess McGill, although I"m not sure about that one) are definitely well ahead of the pack in terms of job prospects on a more global scale. Grads from those schools are sought after by the leading global firms, the Skaddens of the world, as opposed to just large local firms. Although depending on your goals that might not mean anything.

This is basically BS. No one cares if you went to Osgoode. Almost no one works for Skadden coming out of a Canadian law school.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

First, that's not true, if you studied law at Oxford people here will interview you. Second, what the hell is a 2nd tier Canadian law school? Western? Seriously there's basically no stratification among law schools in this country. A U of A grad is no better or worse off than a U of S or UBC grad.


This is basically BS. No one cares if you went to Osgoode. Almost no one works for Skadden coming out of a Canadian law school and if you mean that working in their toronto office is akin working for a "leading global firm" you're nuts. If that's what you're after you're better off at a 7 sisters on Bay.

Okay, whatever you say. That explains why a number of NYC offices of Vault top 20 firms are interviewing at UT and Osgoode. Those schools have a better reputation in the global market, that's a fact. Why do you think NYU and Yale are pairing with them for joint degree programs??

[troutman]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

First, that's not true, if you studied law at Oxford people here will interview you. Second, what the hell is a 2nd tier Canadian law school? Western? Seriously there's basically no stratification among law schools in this country. A U of A grad is no better or worse off than a U of S or UBC grad.


This is basically BS. No one cares if you went to Osgoode. Almost no one works for Skadden coming out of a Canadian law school and if you mean that working in their toronto office is akin working for a "leading global firm" you're nuts. If that's what you're after you're better off at a 7 sisters on Bay.

Did they not teach manners at your law school?

[AR_Six]

They do that every year - go to Tdot and talk to a couple of people. A couple of people get hired. They also get hired out of UBC in certain circumstances, but it's farther away and fewer students, so there's less presence. If the U of A was in Toronto, they'd interview there, too.

That's not the golden egg for law students, though, from my experience when going through school everyone who actually cared about working in BigLaw were aiming at places like McCarthy's / Davies / Faskens... and for those guys, again, no one cares. I work for a big firm and our recruiting process pretty much couldn't care less where you got your LLB/JD. Hell, imo, Dalhousie might be the best territory to mine for candidates lately out east.

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by troutman

Did they not teach manners at your law school?

No. Or maybe it was an elective.

But I am going to redact that post anyway because it probably was a bit hyperbolic. Skadden is obviously a world-class firm, it just never had that kind of revered status for anyone I knew going through, probably because so few people actually end up there in comparison to the 7 sisters firms, many of which are world-class in their own right.

[Dentoman]

Originally Posted by troutman

I learned how to read large volumes of material efficiently. I learned to write accurately and concisely. I learned how to approach a problem from many sides.

I can't do anything of these things (except reading efficiently - if message boards count) ...... guess that explains my choice of dentistry. Also, I'm basically lazy, so the hours of work of CA or law would kill me.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

First, that's not true, if you studied law at Oxford people here will interview you. Second, what the hell is a 2nd tier Canadian law school? Western? Seriously there's basically no stratification among law schools in this country. A U of A grad is no better or worse off than a U of S or UBC grad. I have no idea about Thomson River, but outside of that, every school is pretty much on a level playing field though they may excel in certain areas.


This is basically BS. No one cares if you went to Osgoode. Almost no one works for Skadden coming out of a Canadian law school.

This isn't entirely true. Going to UofT will give you an edge. It's much harder to get into UofT and the quality of students there is, in general, higher. People know this.

If you want to do human rights law, going to UVic will be and edge.

For the rest of the schools though, I'd agree, it's pretty much a wash. However, you'll have an advantage getting hired locally. Firstly, you'll actually be in the location you want to get hired in. You can network there, apply/interview all year round, etc...

Also, I don't think the other poster was talking about studying at Oxford. There are a variety of UK schools that accept Canadian students with lower standards than Canadian school. It's much harder to transfer from one of these schools into a Canadian law practice. The greatest barrier to law practice in Canada is actually getting into law school. In the US, Australia, and the UK, this isn't necessarily the case. Everyone knows this as well. So if you go to a foreign school, you'll have to fight the stigma that you went there merely because you couldn't get in here. It's doable, but a difficult road to travel. For instance, I know a friend from Vancovuer who ended up having to go to Leceister in the UK due to subadequate LSAT and grades. He was able to find articling in Canada, but had to go to Fort McMurray to do it.

The NCA process truly is a b#$#. If you are graduating from a non-Canadian school that is not on the level of Oxford or Harvard, be prepared to wait years to get an articling spot and possibly have to go the least desirable markets in Canada.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by fotze

Discount dental for Calgarypuck members!

Denotman!

fotze needs new braces

Denotman!

fotze needs new braces

Dentoman!

fotze needs new braces

Dentoman!

[Dentoman]

I hate anything ortho related .... I do get several nice gifts from orthodontists a few times a year.

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by blankall

This isn't entirely true. Going to UofT will give you an edge. It's much harder to get into UofT and the quality of students there is, in general, higher. People know this.

If you want to do human rights law, going to UVic will be and edge.

Yes, that was a bit of an exaggeration. Certain schools do excel at certain things and UVic is a great example. And while U of T does have that slight edge in how people perceive its status, arguably, I don't think that impacts hiring decisions coming out of the school. I'm serious when I say it makes basically no difference to us in assessing an applicant whether or not they got their good grades at U of T or Osgoode or Dal or UBC or U of A. To the extent the school matters, it's not because of prestige so much as "well the people already here from X school say this dude is smart, hard working and generally an awesome guy".

Also, I don't think the other poster was talking about studying at Oxford. There are a variety of UK schools that accept Canadian students with lower standards than Canadian school.

I haven't heard of people going to the UK when they can't get in here, but heard about that quite a bit with regard to Australia.

Plenty of opportunity in Ft. Mac for lawyers actually if you want to make a go of it, though, from what I'm told.

[Dentoman]

Originally Posted by fotze

Discount dental for Calgarypuck members!

I said I'm lazy ..... not cheap.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

Yes, that was a bit of an exaggeration. Certain schools do excel at certain things and UVic is a great example. And while U of T does have that slight edge in how people perceive its status, arguably, I don't think that impacts hiring decisions coming out of the school. I'm serious when I say it makes basically no difference to us in assessing an applicant whether or not they got their good grades at U of T or Osgoode or Dal or UBC or U of A. To the extent the school matters, it's not because of prestige so much as "well the people already here from X school say this dude is smart, hard working and generally an awesome guy".

For big law jobs (especially those in Toronto), which seems to be the focus coming out of school, UofT certainly has a definitive edge. Smaller firms and firms outside Toronto look more qualitatively at their applicants.

Originally Posted by AR_Six

I haven't heard of people going to the UK when they can't get in here, but heard about that quite a bit with regard to Australia.

Plenty of opportunity in Ft. Mac for lawyers actually if you want to make a go of it, though, from what I'm told.

Ft. Mac sounds like an awful awful place for a new lawyer: no women, low pay, high cost of living, etc.... The only thing more miserable than living there would be looking around you and realizing that everyone there makes a minimum of 5 times as much as you.....and it took you 7 years of university to get there.

[CISSP]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

Yes, that was a bit of an exaggeration. Certain schools do excel at certain things and UVic is a great example. And while U of T does have that slight edge in how people perceive its status, arguably, I don't think that impacts hiring decisions coming out of the school. I'm serious when I say it makes basically no difference to us in assessing an applicant whether or not they got their good grades at U of T or Osgoode or Dal or UBC or U of A. To the extent the school matters, it's not because of prestige so much as "well the people already here from X school say this dude is smart, hard working and generally an awesome guy".

I haven't heard of people going to the UK when they can't get in here, but heard about that quite a bit with regard to Australia.

Plenty of opportunity in Ft. Mac for lawyers actually if you want to make a go of it, though, from what I'm told.

Yes, Sorry for the lack of clarification. I was making reference to the NCA process which would make it difficult to re-enter the Canadian market. I'm sure if you are coming from Cambridge or Oxford with good grades, your prospects are good universally. However, If you're coming from a school like Edinborough or Kings College, you're really no better off the one coming from Melbourne or Sydney (Or Daresay Bond University).

Sorry for the ranking. My general statement is all the Universities ranked are of the same quality. 2nd tier would basically be TRU, Lakehead, UNB and some would argue Windsor, Manitobia and Moncton. If you do well at any of the Lawschools you should be fine. Each one in the better list caters to different needs.

UVIC is great for human rights. UBC has great rep in the BC area, York has good national rep, UT is great all round (Specifically for Baystreet), Western is Corporate, Ottawa is IP, Queen's has a joint MBA and great family law, Calgary and Alberta have great mining/energy industry rep and so on. Each one has a different size and a different group it caters towards. (I did alot of research before I decided to pursue a CA so I'm not sure if it's still relevant today)

[CISSP]

Originally Posted by blankall

For big law jobs (especially those in Toronto), which seems to be the focus coming out of school, UofT certainly has a definitive edge. Smaller firms and firms outside Toronto look more qualitatively at their applicants.




Ft. Mac sounds like an awful awful place for a new lawyer: no women, low pay, high cost of living, etc.... The only thing more miserable than living there would be looking around you and realizing that everyone there makes a minimum of 5 times as much as you.....and it took you 7 years of university to get there.

\

Ft. Mac is a great place for Engineers and labourers/techs. Otherwise it's not so great. As so keenly pointed out, you'll earn a pittence while everyone around you is raking it in with 2 week on 1 week off work rotations.

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by blankall

For big law jobs (especially those in Toronto), which seems to be the focus coming out of school, UofT certainly has a definitive edge. Smaller firms and firms outside Toronto look more qualitatively at their applicants.

Bay offices get most of their recruits out of Toronto schools because that's where the absolute vast majority of their applicants come from. They don't discriminate against people from elsewhere. Buddy of mine who works on bay got his gig from a 20 minute OCI, thing is there weren't that many people who participated in OCI's because they didn't want to move to Toronto. If there's any disadvantage coming from other schools it's because of being perceived as a flight risk, not because you didn't go to U of T.

Ft. Mac sounds like an awful awful place for a new lawyer: no women, low pay, high cost of living, etc.... The only thing more miserable than living there would be looking around you and realizing that everyone there makes a minimum of 5 times as much as you.

Depends how motivated and self-dependent you are. You eatwhat you kill up there and you could do very well for yourself. The market rate for a residential real estate deal alone up there is 3 times what it is in Calgary. There's more money and more work than lawyers. EDIT: Though I'm not looking to make that particular move myself, by any means.

[CISSP]

Originally Posted by troutman

Did they not teach manners at your law school?

Trout, if you don't mind me asking, which Lawschool did you go to? I was always interested to see where people decided to go. I actually sat on a couple offers before I decided to go the CA route (co-oped at Deloitte through undergrad and stuck around postgrad)

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by CISSP

My Adivce. (If you can guess from my name, I work for a big 4; I also have a CA but CA is a lame nickname).

I worked for a Big 4 and have no idea with a CISSP is. I searched it on Google and would have never guessed you'd have worked at an accounting firm. I'd have guessed IT nerd.

[CISSP]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

I worked for a Big 4 and have no idea with a CISSP is. I searched it on Google and would have never guessed you'd have worked at an accounting firm. I'd have guessed IT nerd.

It is IT related. I did alot of work with ERS at Deloitte. CISSP is a ISC2 certification. It isn't much but it sounds pretty cool. I also have several Cisco certs and am gearing up for a part-time MBA.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CISSP

It is IT related. I did alot of work with ERS at Deloitte. CISSP is a ISC2 certification. It isn't much but it sounds pretty cool. I also have several Cisco certs and am gearing up for a part-time MBA.

To who??

[blankall]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

Bay offices get most of their recruits out of Toronto schools because that's where the absolute vast majority of their applicants come from. They don't discriminate against people from elsewhere. Buddy of mine who works on bay got his gig from a 20 minute OCI, thing is there weren't that many people who participated in OCI's because they didn't want to move to Toronto. If there's any disadvantage coming from other schools it's because of being perceived as a flight risk, not because you didn't go to U of T.

I really disagree on this. From UofT your probably fine applying with average or just above average marks. From UBC you needed to be in the top 20-10% or have amazing pre-work experience to secure a job at a top firm in Toronto.

Originally Posted by AR_Six

Depends how motivated and self-dependent you are. You eatwhat you kill up there and you could do very well for yourself. The market rate for a residential real estate deal alone up there is 3 times what it is in Calgary. There's more money and more work than lawyers. EDIT: Though I'm not looking to make that particular move myself, by any means.

The discussion had more to do with new graduates looking for articling jobs. You aren't really in a position to "Eat what you kill" until you have the necesary experience to kill it. I don't, however, doubt you could build a fine practice up there in the areas of real estate, criminal law, employment law or personal injury.

Being an established lawyer in Fort Mac probably wouldn't be nearly as bad. You'd have money to buy comforts and take vacations. Being dirt poor in Fort Mac as an articling student, however, sounds like a prison sentence.