Loose Fill Blown Insulation

[DFO]

Originally Posted by GGG

Does it acutally produce that against R20 vs R20. Is eliminating gaps at the studs worth that much?

Also in terms of payback period 12k is an awfully long time. Without looking at my bill I think I average about $1200 to $1500 per year in heating with my summer bill being about 20% of the gas used on my winter bill. So I assume that 20% of the total gas used is used to heat water. About 30-40% of the bill is fees that are not dependant on gas used. So to heat my house I am using about $600-700 worth of gas per year. Even assuming gas price doubles you are looking at a 20 year payback asuming the 50% is accurate and doesn't account for the time value of money. At 5% interest on the 12k you would never pay off the investment.

So before committing to spending the 12k on spray foam I would do some efficincy calcs based on a variety of different things you could spend the 12k on. Roof insulation, Window improvements, Furnance improvements, On Demand hot water, Insulating the basement, Geo Thermal heat pumps, Solar Hot Water, Solar Panels, etc and figure out the best bang for you buck. Or maybe even going to a better than R20 insulation.

It's tricky to determine when the added expense will payout. In our case we went with the spray based primarily on feedback from a few owners with sprayed houses & similar HVAC setups.

The 12k I threw out there off the top of my head included the spray/blown combo we did for the attic. As well I don't think it's a simple R20 vs R20 comparison. The 2lb spray has ~R6/inch - in our place it looked like there was 4-5 inches in the 2x6 exterior walls. That's R24-30 compared to R20 estimate for bat insulation (which won't really stay at R20 according to some).

[speede5]

Spray foam won't help the OP, you have to have the studs exposed to do it right.

As for future mods, spray foam is typically only 2" in a 3.5" cavity, so there's room for extra wires. It's no more a hassle than pulling a wire through a wall, drill some holes and fish it through. Spray foam is great for airsealing/insulating but I would only use it in select areas. Roxul is great in walls. I worry about fire in these newer homes, the walls are full of the stuff and they will burn fast. It has zero fire resistance, unlike fibreglass, roxul, cellulose.

By the sounds of the OP's walls, if you don't want to open the walls blown in is your only option. It will settle over time but you will be long gone before it is noticable. cellulose packs in really tight and doesn't settle like the old wood chips did.

[Shin Pad]

Originally Posted by kevman

Oops, perhaps I should have added it's an existing home where batt installation isn't really an option.

My walls look like this: Cedar Shingles -> Tar Paper -> Diagonal 1x6 -> Open stud space with loose "buffalo board" sheet -> "Buffalo board" -> Plaster

So as far as I know my options are to: leave it empty, blow in cellulose, blow in fibreglass or blow in foam....

*I don't actually know what "buffalo board" is, that's just what somebody told me it's called. It looks like a looser packed more fragile MDF product...

So basically you don't have any insulation in your stud cavities. You also don't have a vapour ######er. If you are going to fill your stud cavities with any insulation, it is extremely important to install a vapour ######er (6 mil poly) on the inside face of the insulation (studs).

If you can't install a vapour ######er (which would be costly in your case because you would have to remove the plaster and fibre board in order to install a vapour barrier) , then definitely stick with a 2 lb density polyurethane foam such as one of the following:
Walltite Eco as manufactured by BASF.
Burnaby Barrier as manufactured by Burnaby Sales Ltd.
Heatlok 0240 as manufactured by Demilec Inc - Cornell Group.
Polarfoam PF-7300-0 Soya as manufactured by Polyurethane Foam Systems Inc.
Lapolla Foam Lok.
Icynene MD-C-200.
These are products that I specify for commercial buildings. The advantage that a polyurethane foam will have over any other kind of insulation, is that it will give you an air seal, which you won't get from loose fill fibre glass, loose fill cellulose fibre, etc.

Whatever you do, don't just fill your cavity space with loose fill insulation. You will end up with condensation occuring within your stud space (where the warm air from inside the house meets the cold from the exterior) and you will end up with mould. That is why it is important to have a vapour barrier or air seal. You want to make sure that the moisture in the warm interior air is not allowed to get into the cavity space and condense. With the polyurethane insulation, the warm are will not pass through the insulation, thus you have basically the same effect as using a vapour ######er.

I read a comment above regarding the house needing to "breathe". What needs to breathe to the exterior, is the cavity space from the vapour ######er out, not for interior air to pass through the walls to the exterior.

[REDVAN]

hey all, another bump.

Don't think spray foam is affordable for us right now, but what do you say about the upgrade from standard fibreglass to a higher R valued Roxul- obviously the higher R value is good, but what do you think about Roxul?

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Shin Pad

Whatever you do, don't just fill your cavity space with loose fill insulation.

Oops too late - ah old threads...

I did a lot of research and retrofitting insulation is a fairly common practice with very little negative results. In most cases the layers and layers of old paint act as a satisfactory vapour barrier.

As for the spray foam situation CBC marketplace just did a special on Sunday about the risks of spray foam. I'm sure it's a great product when installed properly but it sounds like it can be a total nightmare if not done correctly.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/spray-foam-in...able-1.2224287

[Frequitude]

As someone who painstakingly cut out spray foam insulation from a flooded house in June, my only comment is you better be on high ground or have good drainage in the event of a pipe burst.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

Don't think spray foam is affordable for us right now, but what do you say about the upgrade from standard fibreglass to a higher R valued Roxul- obviously the higher R value is good, but what do you think about Roxul?

I really like it. It's easier to work with than fibreglass. Easier to cut; both the long cuts and the smaller cuts for wires and electrical boxes. I found it less itchy as well.

Add to that the fire resistance you get, and it seems to be a good value. I would only use it again; unless I could get a smoking deal on fibreglass.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

As someone who painstakingly cut out spray foam insulation from a flooded house in June, my only comment is you better be on high ground or have good drainage in the event of a pipe burst.

Why did you have to cut it out? My in-laws were flooded, and just put in spray foam because they were told it was water proof.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by kevman

In most cases the layers and layers of old paint act as a satisfactory vapour barrier.

This is true, what you want to do is seal up the big leaks. Put foam plates in all your outlets, make sure there's no air gaps under window casings and baseboards, things like that. You'll never get it airtight but you can do yourself a lot of good with some simple details.

[Shin Pad]

Originally Posted by kevman

Oops too late - ah old threads...

I did a lot of research and retrofitting insulation is a fairly common practice with very little negative results. In most cases the layers and layers of old paint act as a satisfactory vapour barrier.

As for the spray foam situation CBC marketplace just did a special on Sunday about the risks of spray foam. I'm sure it's a great product when installed properly but it sounds like it can be a total nightmare if not done correctly.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/spray-foam-in...able-1.2224287

I was going on the premise that you didn't want to remove any of the interior gypsum board. Anyway, not all paints will provide a vapour ######er. For example - latex paints are "breathable", so they won't act as a vapour ######er. To get a proper vapour ######er with paint, you'll probably have to use something like an alkyd paint. As mentioned by someone else here, you also need to seal up around windows, electrical outlets, etc.

Now that you have put loose fill insulation into your walls, the problem you may have is that you can get condensation on the back side of your gypsum board because you don't have a proper vapour ######er. The paper face is perfect for mould growth. You will never see it at this location unless you rip your drywall out, so although it may look ok from the inside, it may be covered in mould on the back side.

As for the Roxul - I agree - great product and definitely a step up from regular fibre glass insulation. If you do use this product, then you will obviously have to remove the interior finishes (gypsum board, etc). If this is the case, then you can put a proper vapour ######er on after the insulation is in place.

I am not a fan of sprayed foam insulation, but it does have it's place. As you mentioned, if it is not installed properly, then it can be a nightmare.

[ranchlandsselling]

Since the thread seems done and I have a similar questions I'll jump in without feeling like I'm hijacking the thread.

I've got a living room above my garage that is eternally cold. I know my neighbor had areas in his garage that didn't even have insulation. Some strips behind the drywall were done, others weren't.

What are my options for getting insulation blown in/injected/etc. from within the garage into the ceiling cavity? Has anyone done this or know of the costs? It's a double car garage, home constructed in 1979.

Thanks!

[I-Hate-Hulse]

First - I'd figure out the source of the coldness before you randomly do anything. Hire a Thermal Scan guy / Rent a FLIR camera to do this. Maybe it's not an insulation thing - my eternally cold room is that way because it lacks a cold air return.

Second - just punching a few holes and blowing it in the ceiling of your garage is haphazard and not likely to do anything. Take the ceiling down and do it right with vapor barrier and batt.

[ken0042]

Living space above a garage? That is a place where I would certainly use spray foam; just for the sealing properties alone.

I do also think it would be worth pulling the drywall in the garage and doing it right. That is- after you find the cause. Like IHH said, could be a number of reasons why.

[Bindair Dundat]

I've fixed many of these over the years...

Save your money on the Thermal Imaging guy.

Tear the drywall off of the garage ceiling and you will find either:
-R12 batts stuffed between the 2 x 10's with no vapor barrier or,
-R12 batts stuffed between the 2 x 10's with 4mil poly on the wrong (cold) side or,
-R nothing...

This is typical of homes constructed during the 70's boom.

The easiest fix is to hire a reputable contractor to spray the underside of the floor sheathing and the rim joists/joist ends with 2lb (closed cell) spray foam, then re drywall/firetape. Probably looking at a couple of grand to get the typical 20 x 12, 14, 16... area shot to R28 and then re boarded/firetaped (REQUIRED...NOT optional!)
Alternatively, you can also drop frame a suspended ceiling below the joists using 2 x 6's, batt and poly the rim joist areas, and install a continuous vapor barrier on top of the dropped ceiling. The poly sheets must be sealed to the joist end poly using caulking/tuck tape and any penetrations/sheet seams must also be sealed. Then batt the dropped ceiling with fiberglass (R28 is minimum code). Note that any light fixtures currently installed in the area will have to be relocated to the dropped ceiling as well. Stuffing the floor joists full of insulation will NOT solve the problem because there will be no continuous vapor barrier above the insulation and no airflow. The joist ends at the party wall between the house and garage should be left open to allow free air movement between the house and the "hot box". Ideally, a "hot box" is serviced (HVAC) by a couple of open heat pipes and a dedicated cold air return. Depending on what is existing in the area for HVAC, I have "borrowed" from the installed duct work in many of the retrofits I have done... but you really have to know what you're doing for this to work properly.
A traditional "hot box" system (as described above) performs every bit as well as the foam, but it requires more skills to execute correctly than are to be found in the typical handyman's "bag of tricks".
Further?
The "powers that be" are starting to take a long hard look at builders currently using open cell (1/2 pound) sprayfoam in this application as it does NOT meet all of the criteria for being a proper vapor barrier. If you plan to use foam? Use closed cell.

And sorry but no...I'm in St Albert, so swinging by to "take a look" is not in the cards

[ranchlandsselling]

Originally Posted by Bindair Dundat

I've fixed many of these over the years...

Save your money on the Thermal Imaging guy.

Tear the drywall off of the garage ceiling and you will find either:
-R12 batts stuffed between the 2 x 10's with no vapor barrier or,
-R12 batts stuffed between the 2 x 10's with 4mil poly on the wrong (cold) side or,
-R nothing...

This is typical of homes constructed during the 70's boom.

The easiest fix is to hire a reputable contractor to spray the underside of the floor sheathing and the rim joists/joist ends with 2lb (closed cell) spray foam, then re drywall/firetape. Probably looking at a couple of grand to get the typical 20 x 12, 14, 16... area shot to R28 and then re boarded/firetaped (REQUIRED...NOT optional!)
Alternatively, you can also drop frame a suspended ceiling below the joists using 2 x 6's, batt and poly the rim joist areas, and install a continuous vapor barrier on top of the dropped ceiling. The poly sheets must be sealed to the joist end poly using caulking/tuck tape and any penetrations/sheet seams must also be sealed. Then batt the dropped ceiling with fiberglass (R28 is minimum code). Note that any light fixtures currently installed in the area will have to be relocated to the dropped ceiling as well. Stuffing the floor joists full of insulation will NOT solve the problem because there will be no continuous vapor barrier above the insulation and no airflow. The joist ends at the party wall between the house and garage should be left open to allow free air movement between the house and the "hot box". Ideally, a "hot box" is serviced (HVAC) by a couple of open heat pipes and a dedicated cold air return. Depending on what is existing in the area for HVAC, I have "borrowed" from the installed duct work in many of the retrofits I have done... but you really have to know what you're doing for this to work properly.
A traditional "hot box" system (as described above) performs every bit as well as the foam, but it requires more skills to execute correctly than are to be found in the typical handyman's "bag of tricks".
Further?
The "powers that be" are starting to take a long hard look at builders currently using open cell (1/2 pound) sprayfoam in this application as it does NOT meet all of the criteria for being a proper vapor barrier. If you plan to use foam? Use closed cell.

And sorry but no...I'm in St Albert, so swinging by to "take a look" is not in the cards

So. . . . Not going to do that since I won't be living here for longer than 6 more months. Was more looking for a quick fix for the winter and prior to selling or renting out.

Great post though. Hopefully will help others in this thread as while very informative for me - probably a little overkill.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by ranchlandsselling

So. . . . Not going to do that since I won't be living here for longer than 6 more months. Was more looking for a quick fix for the winter and prior to selling or renting out.

Great post though. Hopefully will help others in this thread as while very informative for me - probably a little overkill.

So you're saying that rather than fix a known issue, you hope to pass it off to the next person and make it their problem?

Why not step and do the right thing; if not legally then certainly morally? Then when you go to sell you can add that work into the description. As mentioned this type of issue seems common with houses of that vintage. You may not end up being so far behind in what you would lose.

[ranchlandsselling]

Originally Posted by ken0042

So you're saying that rather than fix a known issue, you hope to pass it off to the next person and make it their problem?

Why not step and do the right thing; if not legally then certainly morally? Then when you go to sell you can add that work into the description. As mentioned this type of issue seems common with houses of that vintage. You may not end up being so far behind in what you would lose.

The right thing? Wtf is that supposed to mean? It's a property of a vintage when this type of thing was common. I knew that when I bought it, likely the seller did too and was curious about repairs to correct something that leads to some chilly spots that I notice throughout the winter. Get some good replies followed by a great reply saying "it'll probably cost a few k to rip the ceiling down, insulate and vapor barrier" and I'm a bad guy for suggesting it wont be worthwhile given I'm likely selling soon? If I sell the place I know im not getting 100% back on that reno, just like that bathrooms I need done and the counter I need replaced. That said, the counter will likely help sell the place, so I'll do it, invisible efficiency renos in a 70s era home that will always be inefficient until it's gutted is a waste of my money and potentially someone else's who might rip the floor and ceilings apart anyway. I had Arpi's come by and tell me upgrading to an HE furnace would
be a waste given the layout and inefficiencies of the residence as it currently is, so maybe save the morality/guilt trip comments for when it's actually warranted. Your prior posts were useful, appreciated an on topic, the above is just weird.
thanks

[ken0042]

The previous seller failing to disclose an issue doesn't make it right for you to fail to disclose that same issue.

Your house has an HVAC issue that you have identified, and your post talking about waiting until after winter to sell came across as sounding like you were planning on selling at a time where you could get away with not disclosing the issue.

To compare a hidden HVAC issue with out-dated fixtures; the two are not even on the same level. Your house has a core issue. Fix it or disclose it. Failure to do those things is wrong, and I'm sorry you feel it "weird" to be told when you are doing something wrong.

[Bindair Dundat]

Originally Posted by ranchlandsselling

So. . . . Not going to do that since I won't be living here for longer than 6 more months. Was more looking for a quick fix for the winter and prior to selling or renting out.

Great post though. Hopefully will help others in this thread as while very informative for me - probably a little overkill.

Agreed, given the circumstances you have described. Realizing a return on the investment will take a couple of years and in your situation? It makes no sense to dump this kind of cash into something you bought to flip (or rent out).
I will advise you that if you have serious issues with the tiled walls in your tub areas (and do intend to use this house as a rental), then these should be addressed prior to contracting a tenancy. Water is a nasty, nasty bit of business and can cause serious structural damage if left unchecked to "do it's thing". An ounce of prevention is worth it in such a case...even if it does cost a grand to R & R the tub area.
I did one where the floor joists under the bathtub were wet rotted so badly that there was only about 3 viable inches left on the bottom chord of four of the six 2 x 10 joists, carrying the weight of the tub (plus the 400-500 pounds of water it can hold)...
Scary "stuff"!

Thanks for the "thanks"

Ron

[ranchlandsselling]

Originally Posted by ken0042

The previous seller failing to disclose an issue doesn't make it right for you to fail to disclose that same issue.

Your house has an HVAC issue that you have identified, and your post talking about waiting until after winter to sell came across as sounding like you were planning on selling at a time where you could get away with not disclosing the issue.

To compare a hidden HVAC issue with out-dated fixtures; the two are not even on the same level. Your house has a core issue. Fix it or disclose it. Failure to do those things is wrong, and I'm sorry you feel it "weird" to be told when you are doing something wrong.

Who says it has an hvac issue? It's got cold spots, I'd wager half of the houses of this vintage have similar isses. I have no idea what is causing it and guessed as to a possible reason why. In its current state it's not a safety issue, I've lived here for seven years and consider it a minor nuisance. As to selling in the spring, that's usually the best market to sell into and coincides with getting my new house.

I have zero obligation to "disclose" something that 1. I dont know to be true and 2. Any buyer should be looking into themselves.

Core issue? Its almost 40 years old, without major upgrades something of that age could be nearing it's end of economic life. Id guess my wall insulation could be sunken down into the bottom of the wall like someone already suggested, garage door needs replaced, a few windows still need replaced, subfloor in the master bedroom squeaks (don't know why), basement insulation sucks, etc. However thats not a preview of how im going to have it describedvin a listing. Im sorry but everything is buyew beware, a 40 year old home isn't sold with a warranty or anything else. Not sure how you can possibly consider me doing anything wrong. Your last two posts have been filled with mostly assumptions that haven't been correct, I'd suggest you stop before you make more. Maybe get Travis to chime in.... I'll pm him

That said, you must get disappointed a lot when you shop, clearly in every transaction you've had everything that could and will go wrong has been meticulously described to you buy the "all knowing" seller.