More 'tolerance' CPC style

[Claeren]

But the point is not whether it is bad for both parties but whether the CPC, who are perceived to have a problem with discrimination, can get their act together just enough to not make such comments.

IF the Liberals were suffering because of intolerance it would be stupid for them to make any comments - but they are not so it is a non-issue.

Likewise, the CPC ARE having problems so when they make a comment despite the fact they should be on guard about such issues it is not only a problem in the specific sense (the same sense it is for the liberals) but in the broader sense as a party.

If a party that is supposed to be on guard about such issues yet goes around calling politically savy women whores and sluts and using racial slurs it is not just a matter of whether it is ethically correct but a matter of stupidity as a party.

If a party making an effort to be Politically correct cannot even do that how can they balance a budget? Or effectivily communicate on the international stage? It is a matter of having your act together as a party... why should someone already suspicious of your party start voting for it? DON'T GO AND GIVE THEM A REASON NOT TO!

When people see this behavior they think that "it must really be ingrained in our red neck 'selves' because it is so pervaisive and cannot be curbed even when it is costing 'us' votes".

Simply, the Liberals have political capital when it comes to minorities and women, the conservatives do not.

If you cannot accept that, and if the party cannot accept that, they will never improve their performance and they will never get elected.

Again, it is not eastern voters with the problem, it is the party that has the problem....


Claeren.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

I agree that the party does have a problem, but it is not a problem that is unique to the CPC as many people seem to believe. it is this view which is prmoted time and time again by the Liberal Party and in turn the government. Should the individuals not be making the comments, very much so, it is foolish to the fullest degree. To think that it is only the CPC that is making comments which could be considered derogitory, is in my opinion equally foolish, and that is the perspective of a great number of individuals and in my view it is a direct result of the way in which the Liberal Party markets the conservatives.

[Claeren]

So the Liberals should just give in and tell everyone to vote Conservative?

Further, the Conservatives, who despite a STRONG desire to not make comments still do, but the Liberals should assume it is not a sign of the truthful feelings of the party but a series of mistakes and let it go?


If the Conservatives didn't constantly say things like this there wouldn't be a problem... yet they DO!

That is no ones fault but the Conservatives.... the fact the blame always has to be elsewhere (media, easterners, liberals) is a further sign of the problem and certainly not movement towards a solution...


It is also a sign of more Conservative hypocracy (something that despite your reluctance to pick up on IS picked up upon by eastern voters - those guys you need on your side to win an election.). All Liberals are stealing scum even though a small number of liberals were involved (along with CPC Bloc allies) and that is okay YET it is wrong to say that all CPC members are racists sexist pigs when only a small number insist on making comments?

The Liberals/press will stop taking issue with pervaisive Conservative prejudice the day the Conservatves/press stop taking issue with Liberal corruption - IE: Never...


Claeren.

[Jagger]

Originally posted by Flame On@May 22 2005, 10:55 AM
Further I couldn't care less about brandishing the KKK. I don't see how that's offensive unless you're a part of that org, or you're using it out of context. Which I don't think they were. I'm prepared to admit it was over the top and they could be wiser in their reproachment in that case but that's it.
Further did you not see Martin on TV personally appologising!! and promising to replace any money proven taken??? You may not buy his words or believe the sentiment but he made an unscheduled tv spot to specifically appologies and explain his position. Maybe you didn't see it you know, your head being so far up your own rectum and all

I've tried to stay out of these debates but all I can say to this is "WOW"

Pretty much sums up Liberal double standards in a nutshell. Way to go!

[transplant99]

They still picked people who either were or looked like italians for a picture of mafia types

Chretian "looks" italian? What in the hell does that mean?

Sounds like a stereotype statement to me. Isnt this exactly what you accuse Conservatives of being?

Holy crap what an imbicilic thing to say...especially in light of what you are arguing against.

Hilarious.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by Claeren@May 22 2005, 12:40 PM
So the Liberals should just give in and tell everyone to vote Conservative?

...

The Liberals/press will stop taking issue with pervaisive Conservative prejudice the day the Conservatves/press stop taking issue with Liberal corruption - IE: Never...


Claeren.

No all I am saying is that people should attempt to make a valient effort and allow themselves to be forcefed everything that is being said by the politicans. I agree that it happens on both sides, but it seems to me as though the Liberals are especially guilty of that, and often times with no basis for their arguement (read KKK, Carolyn Parrish, etc, etc)

[MarchHare]

In other news, Harper has made comments during a by-election campaign in Labrador that the Liberals intend to close the military base there.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/National/

I thought only the Liberals occused the other party of having a hidden agenda. Surely Harper would never stoop so low, right? This has to be another fabrication of that damn Eastern media I keep hearing so much about.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

"We're convinced, with the Liberals, the base is going to be shut down," Mr. Harper said. "I think that's where they're going."

Yeah that sounds like a real loaded statement right there. Especially when they do the odd thing of backing the claim up with facts which would lead ot the logical assumption that the Liberals might close the base.

"Mr. O'Connor has criticized Defence Minister Bill Graham for the decline of training and employment at the base."

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by MarchHare@May 22 2005, 01:50 PM
In other news, Harper has made comments during a by-election campaign in Labrador that the Liberals intend to close the military base there.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/National/

I thought only the Liberals occused the other party of having a hidden agenda. Surely Harper would never stoop so low, right? This has to be another fabrication of that damn Eastern media I keep hearing so much about.

I also thought we waited for all the facts to come out before passing judgement? Why not let Harper back up why he is coming to that conclusion before jumping to conclusions?

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Claeren@May 22 2005, 12:40 PM
So the Liberals should just give in and tell everyone to vote Conservative?

Further, the Conservatives, who despite a STRONG desire to not make comments still do, but the Liberals should assume it is not a sign of the truthful feelings of the party but a series of mistakes and let it go?


If the Conservatives didn't constantly say things like this there wouldn't be a problem... yet they DO!

That is no ones fault but the Conservatives.... the fact the blame always has to be elsewhere (media, easterners, liberals) is a further sign of the problem and certainly not movement towards a solution...


It is also a sign of more Conservative hypocracy (something that despite your reluctance to pick up on IS picked up upon by eastern voters - those guys you need on your side to win an election.). All Liberals are stealing scum even though a small number of liberals were involved (along with CPC Bloc allies) and that is okay YET it is wrong to say that all CPC members are racists sexist pigs when only a small number insist on making comments?

The Liberals/press will stop taking issue with pervaisive Conservative prejudice the day the Conservatves/press stop taking issue with Liberal corruption - IE: Never...


Claeren.

I don't think anyone has argued that such comments are not a CPC problem. Nobody is blaming anyone else for a Conservative MP making a dumb comment - no matter how accurate or heartfelt it was.

The complaint is the hypocricy and the double standard that is being pushed, and that *is* the fault of the media.

Your suggestion that we are saying the Liberals should just say "vote conservative" is, in a word, stupid. In more words, it is inaccurate, illinformed and excessive hyperbole.

What I am saying, at least, is that the Liberals should refrain from throwing accusations at the Conservatives that they themselves are guilty of. However, they dont have to worry about it, as they are going to get a free pass where the Conservatives wont, and they know it.

[Flame On]

Originally posted by Jagger+May 22 2005, 01:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jagger @ May 22 2005, 01:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Flame On@May 22 2005, 10:55 AM
Further I couldn't care less about brandishing the KKK. I don't see how that's offensive unless you're a part of that org, or you're using it out of context. Which I don't think they were. I'm prepared to admit it was over the top and they could be wiser in their reproachment in that case but that's it.
Further did you not see Martin on TV personally appologising!! and promising to replace any money proven taken??? You may not buy his words or believe the sentiment but he made an unscheduled tv spot to specifically appologies and explain his position. Maybe you didn't see it you know, your head being so far up your own rectum and all#

I've tried to stay out of these debates but all I can say to this is "WOW"

Pretty much sums up Liberal double standards in a nutshell. Way to go! [/b][/quote]
Oh boo hoo. It's not like I bring that up all the time, but I keep seeing Captain Crunch harping on about the KKK thing. I admitted it wasn't right, it crossed a line etc. But it was said in the context of dispute about how the Cons handled something yet is thrown back like they just came out with this random accusation from out of nowhere.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Flame On@May 22 2005, 05:55 PM

Further I couldn't care less about brandishing the KKK. I don't see how that's offensive unless you're a part of that org, or you're using it out of context.

I think this sums up what we need to know about Flame on.

[Flame On]

Originally posted by Snakeeye+May 22 2005, 03:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snakeeye @ May 22 2005, 03:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Claeren@May 22 2005, 12:40 PM
So the Liberals should just give in and tell everyone to vote Conservative?

Further, the Conservatives, who despite a STRONG desire to not make comments still do, but the Liberals should assume it is not a sign of the truthful feelings of the party but a series of mistakes and let it go?


If the Conservatives didn't constantly say things like this there wouldn't be a problem... yet they DO!

That is no ones fault but the Conservatives.... the fact the blame always has to be elsewhere (media, easterners, liberals) is a further sign of the problem and certainly not movement towards a solution...


It is also a sign of more Conservative hypocracy (something that despite your reluctance to pick up on IS picked up upon by eastern voters - those guys you need on your side to win an election.). All Liberals are stealing scum even though a small number of liberals were involved (along with CPC Bloc allies) and that is okay YET it is wrong to say that all CPC members are racists sexist pigs when only a small number insist on making comments?

The Liberals/press will stop taking issue with pervaisive Conservative prejudice the day the Conservatves/press stop taking issue with Liberal corruption - IE: Never...


Claeren.

I don't think anyone has argued that such comments are not a CPC problem. Nobody is blaming anyone else for a Conservative MP making a dumb comment - no matter how accurate or heartfelt it was.

The complaint is the hypocricy and the double standard that is being pushed, and that *is* the fault of the media.

Your suggestion that we are saying the Liberals should just say "vote conservative" is, in a word, stupid. In more words, it is inaccurate, illinformed and excessive hyperbole.

What I am saying, at least, is that the Liberals should refrain from throwing accusations at the Conservatives that they themselves are guilty of. However, they dont have to worry about it, as they are going to get a free pass where the Conservatives wont, and they know it. [/b][/quote]
What's stupid is anyone that cops out of an accusation by lamely saying there's a media bias that has a conspiracy to make them look bad. Tried reading the sun lately for example?

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch+May 23 2005, 02:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaptainCrunch @ May 23 2005, 02:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Claeren@May 22 2005, 04:51 PM
As a member of government he needs to live up to a higher standard.

If he was a private individual go ahead, condemn WWII Japanese actions in whatever terms you'd like.

But as a paid member of parliment representing the diverse interests of thousands of people in his riding? PC language is kind of a no-brainer....


People have every right to be concerned when one party consistantly makes such remarks/mistakes. If members from that party are elected and their Prime Minister is in Germany do Canadians want him going on about 'Nazi bas**rds'? Or on a trade mission to Japanses do we want the local papers talking about how our Prime Minister secretly harbours hate towards 'Jap bas**rds'? Or in South Africa or at the UN going on about how Mandela is nothing but a dirty terrorist?

All might (or not) be valid, they just don't need to be emphased without thought by government representatives.


There is a better and more professional way for an elected official to say that the Japanese made mistakes... for people in the east to hold us to that standard is not unreasonable....

Claeren.

If your going to live up to this higher standards, then you should be absolutely outraged by the Liberal comments about the KKK, cross burning, Parrishes rants against the Amercans and others.

You should be reaching the same conclusions about the Liberal members as the conservatives.

But as it stands, when a Liberal does it we hear little if anything, hell even an apology is not demanded.

But when a conservative does it, the world comes to an end and we start hearing statements about hatemongering and intolerance.

The Conservatives have to live up to an impossible double standard, that our government doesn't have to.

Thats whats so annoying and frustrating for people like me.

Should he have stated things the way he stated it, probably not, but what he said was not untrue, and was pulled from feelings as opposed to a political agenda, and even though he did apologize on hind site, the topic header was a typically snotty "Replying to More 'tolerance' CPC style", without even looking past that first banner. Its apparent that even if the CPC came out and said they would honour any Liberal deals in case of election, or they came out with a platform of pupppies and money for orphans, it would be ignored because people who support the Liberals are so far sold on thier theory that the CPC are social de-constructuralists who hate everything and everybody and just want to get thier hands on the charter, that they refuse to listen to anything beyond thier own personal theories.

Somehow in Canadian politics, the message has become completely lost, and it has become a battle of style over substance.

You could also say the same thing about CPC supporters and the Liberals in the west, but the Conservatives have attempted reproachment with the East, while the Liberals have abandoned any reproachment with the west. [/b][/quote]
That's all well and fine. But the term "Jap" is roughly akin to dropping the n-bomb. It reflects an anitquated perspective of how things thin the century beginning with 2. It's likely that this person still harbours ill feeling against an entire race (if that person could even distinguish a Japanese person from a Korean or Chinese person) which is where the problem lies. It's terrible what happened 60 years ago, but that doesn't accurately reflect today. The problem is that unlike the Germans with Nazis, the Japanese army never got refered to as "teikokutai" (imperialist army) or something that could deflect from their race in heritage.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Flame On+May 22 2005, 10:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame On @ May 22 2005, 10:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I've tried to stay out of these debates but all I can say to this is "WOW"

Pretty much sums up Liberal double standards in a nutshell. Way to go!

Oh boo hoo. It's not like I bring that up all the time, but I keep seeing Captain Crunch harping on about the KKK thing. I admitted it wasn't right, it crossed a line etc. But it was said in the context of dispute about how the Cons handled something yet is thrown back like they just came out with this random accusation from out of nowhere. [/b][/quote]
Thats funny Flame on.

Your still saying its no big deal that the conservatives are compared to a bunch of murdering race haters, after the Liberals are compared to a T.V. show about a crime family.

Your a prime example of whats wrong with the system.

[Flame On]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@May 22 2005, 03:31 PM

Oh whatever. Why don't you climb off your drama queen high horse. All I'm saying; perhaps not very well, is that I don't think the kkk comments are any worse than comments that initially were made. Both were out of order. It's not like I'm endorsing people go around throwing that out there or something.

[Shawnski]

Originally posted by TheCommodoreAfro@May 22 2005, 04:50 PM
That's all well and fine. But the term "Jap" is roughly akin to dropping the n-bomb.

I have pondered the term "Japs" for a couple days now. It is not the first time I have heard it. And it won't be the last time.

At what point does a nickname for a countries peoples become "politically incorrect"?

"Japs" versus "Japanese" is no different to me than
"Brits" versus "British" or
"Swedes" versus "Swedish" or
"Finns" versus "Finnish"

Brits, Swedes and Finns seem to have no problem with the nickname.

Or is the root problem that the "normalized" plurality has to end in "ish" to be OK to shorten into a nickname, but if it ends in "ese" then shortening the nickname is taboo?

"Chinks" is also a politically inappropriate reference to "Chinese". This one appears more obvious. Someone added a "k" inappropriately. Regardless, I am sure "Chins" would have still failed the "ese" test.

Now, the French nickname of "Frogs" is clearly a problem. But they could have avoided that by calling themselves "Frenchese" or "Frenchish". Their fault.

And how in the hell did "Canucks" come outta "Canadians" or "Yanks" come out of "Americans"..... ahhhh, they ended in "ans" so no one is concerned about those two anyway....

On that note, "Germans" aren't called "Germs", 'cause they, too, would end in "ans".

What gives people? Where do the boundaries lie in what is OK, or what is not? When exactly does that boundary get crossed?

My post is obviously in jest, but the questions are real. No offense intended to anyone.... except Canucks.... or their fans.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Flame On+May 22 2005, 11:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame On @ May 22 2005, 11:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaramonLS@May 22 2005, 03:31 PM

Oh whatever. Why don't you climb off your drama queen high horse. All I'm saying; perhaps not very well, is that I don't think the kkk comments are any worse than comments that initially were made. Both were out of order. It's not like I'm endorsing people go around throwing that out there or something. [/b][/quote]
Is that how you dismiss things, by calling people a drama queen? niiiiiccce. Your the one that re-opened the whole Libranos thing, and then your the one that said

Further I couldn't care less about brandishing the KKK. I don't see how that's offensive unless you're a part of that org, or you're using it out of context. Which I don't think they were.

Alluding to your feeling that the Conservatives shouldn't be insulted by the KKK thing because they similar to or part of the KKK.

And I'm still waiting for you to provide Volpe's statements of indignation over the T.V. show the Sopranos before the Libranos poster came out because I want to see where he's more concerned about protecting the sentiments of Italian Canadians as oppossed to smearing the conservatives.

But I'm dropping this debate with you, neither of us is going to see eye to eye, and when people start using terms like "Get your head our of your rectum" or your a drama queen, it dosen't take long for thread lockings and suspensions to take place.

[Faid1]

Originally posted by Shawnski@May 22 2005, 05:14 PM

At what point does a nickname for a countries peoples become "politically incorrect"?

Well you have a point, but I don't think it's the name that offensive so much as the history behind it.

For example, the words ******** and negro are both derived from Latin "niger" meaning "black". Of course, it's offensive because of it's association with slavery and white supremacy.

[CaramonLS]

Shawnski, I've always thought of the offensive racist slur for Japanese people to be "Nip", taken from the word "Nippon", which I would consider akin to the word "chink".