A sad day for Canada

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@May 21 2005, 04:58 PM
Sure Alberta has a responsibility to the other provinces in Canada, I have no trouble with that at all. What I have a huge problem with is a Federal Government who basically and admittedly under Jean Chretien stated that they can't understand how we think, and that they basically strongly disliked us.

So you believe everything Chretien says, or do you pick and choose depending on what suits your ideology best?

I've lived in the east and west, and I have no idea what Chretien meant by his statement.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+May 21 2005, 05:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ May 21 2005, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaptainCrunch@May 21 2005, 04:58 PM
Sure Alberta has a responsibility to the other provinces in Canada, I have no trouble with that at all. What I have a huge problem with is a Federal Government who basically and admittedly under Jean Chretien stated that they can't understand how we think, and that they basically strongly disliked us.

So you believe everything Chretien says, or do you pick and choose depending on what suits your ideology best?

I've lived in the east and west, and I have no idea what Chretien meant by his statement. [/b][/quote]
um, when the Prime minister of Canada says it are you saying that I should believe it was a slip of the toungue and he didn't mean it? Or that he was drunk at the time? Or maybe had tourettes syndrome. I'm confused because he said it, it got to the press and he didn't attempt to retract it? If Harper came out tommorrow and said "I don't understand how Ontario thinks, they are different from us, and don't makes sense" Would he get the free ride that you are giving Chretien?

Sorry but based on the fact that the Liberal's don't even bother to send thier leaders out here during elections, or do it for one day speaks volumes for me.

They don't need to understand us, or have us involved because the election is over by the time it hits the manitoba border.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by fokakya@May 21 2005, 09:38 AM
An economic firewall is a ridiculous idea. Far-right conservatives are constantly forgetting that this is a Country and Alberta has just as much responsibility to it as every other province. And don't bring up seperation, that is an even more ludicrous idea than a firewall...

Yes, Alberta has a responsibility to pay the welfare of other provinces so that they can support a reasonable level of care and services. Not one single person has disagreed with that.

However, Ottawa has a reponsibility to pay attention to the entire nation, not just the part that gets it the most votes.

Also, do we have a responsibility to pay for the economically devistating policies of other provinces (ie: BC under the NDP) ? I mean hell, that's the epitome of welfare, isnt it? Why run your own house properly when someone else will cover for your errors?

And while Alberta probably wont be targetted specifically, where do you think the extra $20 billion that the government has promised will come from? All Canadians are going to be paying for that orgy of vote buying.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Maritime Q-Scout@May 21 2005, 05:23 PM
Damn democracy and everything it stands for!

Amen to that.

It is always a sad day when people believe democracy (a parasitic system) can work any other way.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Claeren@May 21 2005, 09:25 AM
But how much did you complain when Ralph Klein sold the Holy Cross to his good personal friends who work in private health care for pennies on the dollar?

That cost you more then the entire adscam scandel...

Did it cause you to vote NDP?

Did your disgust at losing a few dollars because of Alberta-PC corruption change your vote?

Did you complain when the Alberta papers didn't push the story?

Did you complain when people kept voting PC?

Did you lament the end of good governnance and the need to assert Municiple power over Provincial jurisdiction?

There is not a single thing on earth that can convince me to ever vote NDP. Ever.

However, dont confuse support for the federal Conservatives as being autmatically supportive of the provincial Conservatives. I am not at all enamoured with Kleins Tories, and unless the next leader can convince me otherwise, my vote in the next election will be going to the Alliance.

However, I would argue that Klein's Tories have generally been good for Alberta, where the Federal Liberals have done more harm than anything else.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@May 21 2005, 06:56 PM
However, I would argue that Klein's Tories have generally been good for Alberta, where the Federal Liberals have done more harm than anything else.

How so? Quality of living, wealth, national unity and identity, etc... All are higher now than they were before the Liberals took over. Our economy grew more than any other G-7 country since Chretiens 2nd term. Pretty much every other G-7 country stalled out or fell back.

The Liberals must have done some things right.

[JohnnyTitan]

Originally posted by Snakeeye+May 21 2005, 06:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snakeeye @ May 21 2005, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-fokakya@May 21 2005, 09:38 AM
An economic firewall is a ridiculous idea. Far-right conservatives are constantly forgetting that this is a Country and Alberta has just as much responsibility to it as every other province. And don't bring up seperation, that is an even more ludicrous idea than a firewall...

Yes, Alberta has a responsibility to pay the welfare of other provinces so that they can support a reasonable level of care and services. Not one single person has disagreed with that.

[/b][/quote]
I don't view it as if Alberta is providing welfare.

Do you know how many intelligent, hard-working tax-paying people in Alberta came from other provinces? They went to grade-school in another province (big expense), went to University at U of M or U of R or U of S and now come here and pay big taxes on their good jobs. This is a raw deal for 'Toba and Saskatchewan but it doesn't bankrupt those other provinces because of transfer payments.

Everywhere I go in this city it seems like IMPORTANT people have roots in the prairies or BC or even the maritimes. We ARE a country. We should be working together. If every person from the neighbouring provinces immediately moved to Alberta because "Life is better here"...well guess what. Alberta would be supporting a lot more people anyway. Sometimes it's better to not let EVERYTHING work like a market. Let people stay in their home provinces and re-pay the social services they've invested in their human resources that keep coming our way.

Not to mention the other provinces do provide markets for Alberta's products and services.

I am here because people are pro-business and innovative and want to change for the better. It's a great climate to succeed in. But when people start talking like they are personally responsible for the Oil deposits in this province, it makes Wayne Brady want to smack a b!tch! There are intelligent / hard-working individuals everywhere in this country, and the sooner we can work together instead of against one another the better off we'll be.

I think there is a huge opportunity for Alberta to show some leadership. Enough with this fire-wall / separation business. Alberta has it good right now, and they should parlay that into new ideas and cooperate with neighbours to make things better.

There's no doubt that Ottawa has failed the West to a degree, but your choices are to quit or to get tough and work things out. You firewall guys are effing quitters.

[fokakya]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@May 21 2005, 11:56 AM
However, dont confuse support for the federal Conservatives as being autmatically supportive of the provincial Conservatives. I am not at all enamoured with Kleins Tories, and unless the next leader can convince me otherwise, my vote in the next election will be going to the Alliance.

However, I would argue that Klein's Tories have generally been good for Alberta, where the Federal Liberals have done more harm than anything else.

You see, the thing is, provincially, the party in power right now is the Progressive Conservatives which really isn't the same as the federal CPC at all. The Alberta Alliance party is probably closer in doctrine to the CPC so, you kind of just ate your own shoe leather there. I'd say you are automatically supportive of provincial *conservatives*, just not Progressive Conservatives.

[Flame On]

What melodrama! You must be actors!
Rather than you ruining things for us all why can't we round up all the whining Quebec seperatists and Alberta hard done by'ers and pack 'em off!

[Claeren]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+May 21 2005, 12:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ May 21 2005, 12:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Snakeeye@May 21 2005, 06:56 PM
However, I would argue that Klein's Tories have generally been good for Alberta, where the Federal Liberals have done more harm than anything else.

How so? Quality of living, wealth, national unity and identity, etc... All are higher now than they were before the Liberals took over. Our economy grew more than any other G-7 country since Chretiens 2nd term. Pretty much every other G-7 country stalled out or fell back.

The Liberals must have done some things right. [/b][/quote]
Exactly.


And the Liberals only did it with 1/10th(?) of their budget being supported by oil and gas revenue, unlike in Alberta where a dead monkey could have balanced the books...

If you think Liberals in the East should vote Conservative then you are hypocrite if you still vote PC in Alberta. Both parties waste your tax dollars, both have been involved in scandels, both have benefited from local news media not reporting/covering (or even willfully mocking) allegations.

As has been said, the problem here is not corruption or Easterners not voting Conservative simply because they shouldn't vote Liberal but a lack of vision, breadth, and leadership by the Conservatives.


All the Conservatives need is one great leader, a grand vision for this country, and the ability to sell it to ALL Canadians, not just rural minded Westerners and i guarentee they win a majority in the next election.... Easterners are not stupid - that is the problem, they would have to be to vote for the current Conservative Party...



Claeren.

[HOZ]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+May 21 2005, 04:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ May 21 2005, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mean Mr. Mustard@May 21 2005, 04:39 PM
You consider this democracy where MPs can be bought? This isn't the democracy that I have come to expect from a nation like Canada.

Soooo.... which democracy isn't 'corrupt'?

Where would you rather live? Who's system are you suggesting we emulate? Show me a country that isn't 'corrupt', and I'll show you a scandal that proves otherwise. Every country/democracy has issues. It just so happens that we're experiencing one now (and the rhetoric is over the top).

Do you honestly think this is the first or largest scandal in democratic politics on this planet? Are we to expect more from 'Canadian' democracy for some intangible reason than any other democracy deserves? Are we better than every other country, but we're just not proving it today?

Hardly. Welcome to humanity, where not everyone is as pure, innocent, and good of heart as Mr. Harper. [/b][/quote]
Nice lowest common denominator comment!

Well the world is corrupt...so it isn't wrong that Bananada is!

[HOZ]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+May 21 2005, 07:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ May 21 2005, 07:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Snakeeye@May 21 2005, 06:56 PM
However, I would argue that Klein's Tories have generally been good for Alberta, where the Federal Liberals have done more harm than anything else.

How so? Quality of living, wealth, national unity and identity, etc... All are higher now than they were before the Liberals took over. Our economy grew more than any other G-7 country since Chretiens 2nd term. Pretty much every other G-7 country stalled out or fell back.

The Liberals must have done some things right. [/b][/quote]

Way to confirm my belief that Canada has become Bananada!

Way to excuse corruption and crime!!!

Way to make criminals unaccountable!

Well done.

[HOZ]

Originally posted by Maritime Q-Scout+May 21 2005, 04:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maritime Q-Scout @ May 21 2005, 04:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-HOZ@May 21 2005, 03:29 AM
I can't properly say how disillusioned I am with Canada and Canadian politics.

Damn democracy and everything it stands for! Alberta didn't get what it wanted, so it's wrong!


[/b][/quote]
sigh.

Umm...

The NDP/Independants not doing their duty as an opposition party and whoring themselves for 5 billion

Stronach whoring herself (though I am certain it was Martin giving the oral pleasure) for a cabinet post.

And Canadians in general shrugging this off and accepting corruption, scandal and crime from the most corrupt government in Canadian history.

I don't want to have anything to do with a country like that. That isn't the Canada I grew up in. It has morphed into something disgusting. :boh:

So....time to put up some walls and create a looser federation. I can't speak for other provinces since I am from Alberta, but if they want to do the same more power to them.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally posted by HOZ+May 21 2005, 05:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (HOZ @ May 21 2005, 05:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

sigh.

Umm...
[/b]

oh Hoz, read the entire post

<!--QuoteBegin-Hoz

The NDP/Independants not doing their duty as an opposition party and whoring themselves for 5 billion[/quote]

So the NDP/Independants wanted to have more funding to what they believe in and got it through debate, and politcs of a minority gov't. That's not whoring yourself that's doing what's in the best interest for Canadians, as they see it.

Originally posted by Hoz
Stronach whoring herself (though I am certain it was Martin giving the oral pleasure) for a cabinet post.

is it possible she feels she can better represent her riding as a memeber of a Liberal gov't? Didn't I hear somewhere that Harper told her she's never going anywhere in the CPC? (I could be wrong on that).

Originally posted by Hoz
And Canadians in general shrugging this off and accepting corruption, scandal and crime from the most corrupt government in Canadian history.

I wouldn't say they're the most corrupt, they squantered less than 0.1% of the budget in the sponcership scandal. Air Bus ring a bell?

<!--QuoteBegin-Hoz@
I don't want to have anything to do with a country like that. That isn't the Canada I grew up in. It has morphed into something disgusting. :boh: [/quote]

it's not the Canada I grew up in either, but times change, it's unfortunatel but they do. If you like there's a country that seems to have more of your political taste just to the south.

However I hate to see people go. I'm just playing devil's advocate. Most people here ask how can someone possibly support the Liberals, I just tell you how. When people ask me the same question about the CPC, make no bones about it, I say how they'd be a great gov't.

<!--QuoteBegin-Hoz
So....time to put up some walls and create a looser federation. I can't speak for other provinces since I am from Alberta, but if they want to do the same more power to them.[/quote]

I wouldn't take the ball and go home, you'd never survive.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by HOZ+May 21 2005, 07:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (HOZ @ May 21 2005, 07:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

How so? Quality of living, wealth, national unity and identity, etc... All are higher now than they were before the Liberals took over. Our economy grew more than any other G-7 country since Chretiens 2nd term. Pretty much every other G-7 country stalled out or fell back.

The Liberals must have done some things right.

Way to confirm my belief that Canada has become Bananada!
[/b][/quote]
By stating that Canada has been successful under the Liberals? That confirms that Canada is a "Banana Republic"? You are insane, aren't you?

Way to excuse corruption and crime!!!

Way to make criminals unaccountable!

No, I am just waiting for the results of the inquiry before I jump to conclusions.

Well done.

Medium rare.

[FlamesAddiction]

So is it the new thing for people to start their post with "Um"? I guess that should go on the Pet Peeve thread...

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@May 21 2005, 05:18 PM

um, when the Prime minister of Canada says it are you saying that I should believe it was a slip of the toungue and he didn't mean it?# Or that he was drunk at the time?# Or maybe had tourettes syndrome.# I'm confused because he said it, it got to the press and he didn't attempt to retract it?#

Maybe you could believe that he is just an individual who generalized about something he doesn't understand? Or you can believe that is the central hive mind for the evil Easterners - it's your call.

If Harper came out tommorrow and said "I don't understand how Ontario thinks, they are different from us, and don't makes sense"# Would he get the free ride that you are giving Chretien?

I honestly wouldn't care if he said that. I would think it was pretty dumb just I think it is dumb that Chretien said it, but it wouldn't bother me.

Sorry but based on the fact that the Liberal's don't even bother to send thier leaders out here during elections, or do it for one day speaks volumes for me.

Maybe it is based on the fact that most Albertans have been conditioned by their parents since they were children that they should never vote Liberal. Conservatives seem so concerned about wasting tax payers money, would it not be a waste of money for a federal Liberal to try very hard in Alberta. I think it would be.

They don't need to understand us, or have us involved because the election is over by the time it hits the manitoba border.

I remember thinking the same thing when Mulroney won his last election, but I'm sure you didn't complain then. Should I post the Fox and the Grapes fable again?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by HOZ+May 21 2005, 07:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (HOZ @ May 21 2005, 07:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Soooo.... which democracy isn't 'corrupt'?

Where would you rather live? Who's system are you suggesting we emulate? Show me a country that isn't 'corrupt', and I'll show you a scandal that proves otherwise. Every country/democracy has issues. It just so happens that we're experiencing one now (and the rhetoric is over the top).

Do you honestly think this is the first or largest scandal in democratic politics on this planet? Are we to expect more from 'Canadian' democracy for some intangible reason than any other democracy deserves? Are we better than every other country, but we're just not proving it today?

Hardly. Welcome to humanity, where not everyone is as pure, innocent, and good of heart as Mr. Harper.

Nice lowest common denominator comment!

Well the world is corrupt...so it isn't wrong that Bananada is! [/b][/quote]
Way to avoid addressing the post.

You come off as naive, though I don't think you are. For some reason you're a ranting ideologue... what's the deal? Have you studied much history?

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+May 21 2005, 12:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ May 21 2005, 12:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Snakeeye@May 21 2005, 06:56 PM
However, I would argue that Klein's Tories have generally been good for Alberta, where the Federal Liberals have done more harm than anything else.

How so? Quality of living, wealth, national unity and identity, etc... All are higher now than they were before the Liberals took over. Our economy grew more than any other G-7 country since Chretiens 2nd term. Pretty much every other G-7 country stalled out or fell back.

The Liberals must have done some things right. [/b][/quote]
National Unity? You might want to rethink that one.

The libs fiscal record is pretty good on the outside. On the inside not so much.

The solved their budget woes by offloading on the provinces. Instead of dealing with the fact that they spent way too much on way too many things, they cut health and social transfers. Good strategy really. Provinces don't vote, and provincial leaders got to take the heat for the fact that Ottawa ran and hid.

They grew the economy by sacrificing productivity growth. Sure our GDP numbers look pretty good. Adjusted for the fact that our dollar is 20% lower than it used to be not so much. Our standard of living has been falling relative to other countries for several years and continues to fall. Thats all that matters.

Still, the kicker remains adscam.

The liberals and their government stole. Martin and his government knew about it long before the Gomery inquiry brought the facts out, and the Liberals did everything in their power to stop those facts from coming out.

That's not the act of a few bad apples.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by Claeren@May 21 2005, 09:25 AM

But how much did you complain when Ralph Klein sold the Holy Cross to his good personal friends who work in private health care for pennies on the dollar?

That cost you more then the entire adscam scandel...

Love to hear that story. Seriously.

[Flame On]

The liberals and their government stole. Martin and his government knew about it long before the Gomery inquiry brought the facts out, and the Liberals did everything in their power to stop those facts from coming out.
That's not the act of a few bad apples.

First of all it wasn't Martin's government at the time.
Second, yes, that's exactly what it is. A few bad apples.
Unless you can specifically name every member of the party and the allegations stating their envolvement then yes, you have a few members involved.