Clifford Olson dies

[drewboy12]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

And in the US, where they have the death penalty, it costs significantly more to put an inmate to death than it would cost to keep them in prison for the rest of their life.

Having the death penalty available doesn't mean that the government would save money.

You know that money is just being funded into "the mans" pocket though? The states that do allow Doctor Assisted Suicide, for the antibiotics costs less then $2000 if I am not mistaken. They open about 200 caps and mix the medicine with water, when drank gives a peaceful painless death.

However .... http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

New Study Reveals Costs in Maryland: $186 Million for Five Executions

Kinda stupid... I question everyday how the US has 10T in debt. lol

[drewboy12]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It is, but prisoners aren't getting $80k worth of "perks" per year each. That cost includes cost of guards, building maintenance, etc. These guys aren't coming out of their terms with any kind of savings or RRSPs or things like that either. So while they get the free gym membership you and I have to pay $50 a month for, we're building savings and our future, which they will be severely crippled with a long term sentence.

As far as Olsen goes, no loss there. However, I am not a huge fan of Corrections Canada contacting the families directly to let them know he's at the end. What's the point? Make the families relive the details of their kids deaths all over again now, and then again next week when he finally dies? It just strikes me as a petty revenge move.

Man I wish I was building savings, and trying not to struggle to afford my $63 gym pass each month... lol

But I know what you are saying... I know they are not getting 80k in perks, but it is costing tax payers 80k per inmate to house them in a prison. execute 100 people who killed more then one person... that's 8M a year the government could put into your child's education, healthcare, etc.

Just saying... instead lock each one up for a minimum of 25 years and spend $2M just to have them be aloud to see the light of day again, and "not have any life savings"...

[Locke]

When you're in prison for essentially forever, what happens to these people's assets? If they owned a home, or land or whatever?

They're not dead, so they havent necessarily willed their assets to anyone. If they liquidated the assets, where does the money go?

[Barnet Flame]

I hope it gives the victims' families some sort of closure. I can't begin to imagine the pain they must feel.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by drewboy12

You know that money is just being funded into "the mans" pocket though? The states that do allow Doctor Assisted Suicide, for the antibiotics costs less then $2000 if I am not mistaken. They open about 200 caps and mix the medicine with water, when drank gives a peaceful painless death.

However .... http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty


Kinda stupid... I question everyday how the US has 10T in debt. lol

The mans pocket? Wtf does that even mean?

That money is spent on a variety of things, from the actual execution to the legal fees associated with the appeals process that accompanies most death sentences. And before anyone responds with the 'well do away with the appeals' argument take a second and think about what you're proposing. A system that could sentence people to death with little to no ability for them to appeal their conviction or the sentence imposed. Even with the appeals currently available innocent men have been executed. I shudder to think how many would meet that fate if appeals were done away with.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

However, I am not a huge fan of Corrections Canada contacting the families directly to let them know he's at the end. What's the point?

Maybe to tell them that if they ever wanted to say "Fata you!" to him- this is their last chance?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by drewboy12

Man I wish I was building savings, and trying not to struggle to afford my $63 gym pass each month... lol

But I know what you are saying... I know they are not getting 80k in perks, but it is costing tax payers 80k per inmate to house them in a prison. execute 100 people who killed more then one person... that's 8M a year the government could put into your child's education, healthcare, etc.

Just saying... instead lock each one up for a minimum of 25 years and spend $2M just to have them be aloud to see the light of day again, and "not have any life savings"...

Well, as your one link above alluded to, the cost of the death penalty is not cheap. In fact, most studies I have seen say that after the cost of appeals (which take years), it is actually cheaper to house an inmate for life than it is to execute them.

Take that $186 million figure for five inmates above. At $80,000 per year just to house, they could have incarcerated each of those inmates for 465 years.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Locke

When you're in prison for essentially forever, what happens to these people's assets? If they owned a home, or land or whatever?

They're not dead, so they havent necessarily willed their assets to anyone. If they liquidated the assets, where does the money go?

I would assume victims would have brought wrongful death lawsuits against them and collected from those assets. Absent that they'd likely be treated like the assets of anyone else, passed on to next of kin etc.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Maybe to tell them that if they ever wanted to say "Fata you!" to him- this is their last chance?

Strikes me as a petty thing to do, actually. I understand it on one level, but I just don't see the value in making the families relive their ordeal one extra time.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, as your one link above alluded to, the cost of the death penalty is not cheap. In fact, most studies I have seen say that after the cost of appeals (which take years), it is actually cheaper to house an inmate for life than it is to execute them.

Take that $186 million figure for five inmates above. At $80,000 per year just to house, they could have incarcerated each of those inmates for 465 years.

I'm assuming that the cost between incarceration and death penalty appeals processes are closing fairly quickly. From my understanding the sentencing appeals and trial appeals are getting to be just as numerous as appeals on a death penalty case.

As much as I agree with the death penalty in certain cases. Multiple violent offenses causing deaths, or particularly heinous cases. I also have an understanding that though things like DNA evidence have probably reduced doubts in terms of guilty verdicts, I'd almost prefer that death penalties aren't bought to bear without multiple witnesses to the actual crimes and open and shut DNA proof.

For example, the state never should have bought the Death Penalty into play with Casey Anderson, the trial of evidence was shakey at best.

I would almost be in favor of the American system of justice where violent criminals are getting sentences where there is no chance that the convict is ever leaving prison on parole.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Strikes me as a petty thing to do, actually. I understand it on one level, but I just don't see the value in making the families relive their ordeal one extra time.

Not sure what you are saying here actually. I mean when this scumbag dies it will be frontpage news anyways...so maybe the families get to say one more time what they think of him. That's not petty IMO....that's living with his monstrosities everyday of their lives and getting a chance to vent it out for the final time. If it makes them feel better then they have every right to know ahead of time...afterall they are still the victims here.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Not sure what you are saying here actually. I mean when this scumbag dies it will be frontpage news anyways...so maybe the families get to say one more time what they think of him. That's not petty IMO....that's living with his monstrosities everyday of their lives and getting a chance to vent it out for the final time. If it makes them feel better then they have every right to know ahead of time...afterall they are still the victims here.

They get to go through the emotions of their loss both now, upon being told that Olsen is dying, and again whenever he does die. In both cases, it will be big news, the media is going to the families, etc.

If it makes them feel better, sure. I am just not convinced that making a big deal out of the fact that Olsen is dying will make anyone feel much better in the end. But, like I said, I also understand it, as there is some petty joy in standing over a hated enemy at their weakest moment. So maybe for some, it will be a good thing.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'm assuming that the cost between incarceration and death penalty appeals processes are closing fairly quickly. From my understanding the sentencing appeals and trial appeals are getting to be just as numerous as appeals on a death penalty case.

As much as I agree with the death penalty in certain cases. Multiple violent offenses causing deaths, or particularly heinous cases. I also have an understanding that though things like DNA evidence have probably reduced doubts in terms of guilty verdicts, I'd almost prefer that death penalties aren't bought to bear without multiple witnesses to the actual crimes and open and shut DNA proof.

For example, the state never should have bought the Death Penalty into play with Casey Anderson, the trial of evidence was shakey at best.

I would almost be in favor of the American system of justice where violent criminals are getting sentences where there is no chance that the convict is ever leaving prison on parole.

Capital cases open the door to much more significant appeals processes, as they should. You may be able to appeal on similar grounds for any other conviction, but a capital case opens up additional doors.

The potential for more definitive evidence certainly exists, but evidentiary issues are only a small part of capital offense appeals. Appeals are often based around procedural issues that lead to grossly unfair trials, ineffective assistance of counsel that in some cases is shockingly bad and a number of other things that aren't directly linked to the crime itself, but rather the trial. You could argue that those shouldn't matter, the guy did it, but without a fair trial and competent counsel how do we know that to be true?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by valo403

Capital cases open the door to much more significant appeals processes, as they should. You may be able to appeal on similar grounds for any other conviction, but a capital case opens up additional doors.

The potential for more definitive evidence certainly exists, but evidentiary issues are only a small part of capital offense appeals. Appeals are often based around procedural issues that lead to grossly unfair trials, ineffective assistance of counsel that in some cases is shockingly bad and a number of other things that aren't directly linked to the crime itself, but rather the trial. You could argue that those shouldn't matter, the guy did it, but without a fair trial and competent counsel how do we know that to be true?

I completely understand and agree. From my understanding and A) I'm not a lawyer, and B) my exposure is limited to what I've read.

A lot of the appeals are automatically applied no matter what actually happened in the trial.

From what I've read

Ineffectual council is a standard appeal
The verdict is automatically appealed based not on the merit of the verdict, but the fairness of the verdict
Cruel and unusual punishment is automatically used
Judge's instructions during the trial and the penalty phase is automatically appealed.

From what I've read

Appeals based on actual evidence rules and investigative rules aren't appealed as much.

In other words its not as much the evidence as it is the verdict and the punishment.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by valo403

Capital cases open the door to much more significant appeals processes, as they should. You may be able to appeal on similar grounds for any other conviction, but a capital case opens up additional doors.

The potential for more definitive evidence certainly exists, but evidentiary issues are only a small part of capital offense appeals. Appeals are often based around procedural issues that lead to grossly unfair trials, ineffective assistance of counsel that in some cases is shockingly bad and a number of other things that aren't directly linked to the crime itself, but rather the trial. You could argue that those shouldn't matter, the guy did it, but without a fair trial and competent counsel how do we know that to be true?

When i read up on this stuff many years ago, the one common theme that came out of the exhaustive appeals process was that it seemed that "competant counsel" meant delaying things for as long as possible for a variety of reasons. That, in turn, would also skyrocket the cost of the process itself as in 99% of the cases, the state was on the hook for both prosecution and defense costs as well as the judge/courthouse etc. It seemed to me then like a catch-22 thing that the system had created to make all this stuff so expensive.

These days with the introduction of detailed DNA analysis,(in cases where it is usable) there really shouldn't be as many avenues for attorneys to exploit in the system as there used to be, but it seems like there are even more. Its why i am so torn on the whole death penalty issue. (Aside from the obvious imbalance between those who can afford good counsel and those who depend on state help)

In a case like Olson's....the guy did it. He admitted it, got paid to show where the bodies were and whatnot, so he is the perfect example of why it shouldnt cost more to house him than kill him, but because he is in Canada its a moot point anyhow.

I will be the first to admit that executing an innocent man would be the absolute worst thing the jutice system could be responsible for, which is why if there is any kind of doubt as to guilt or innocence, you err on the ide of caution and allow him to live and use the appeal process. In the case of so many others though? Fry the monsters.

[KTrain]

I think the solution is that they shouldn't be so vigilant with preventing suicides.

That wouldn't make working there anymore fun though.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I completely understand and agree. From my understanding and A) I'm not a lawyer, and B) my exposure is limited to what I've read.

A lot of the appeals are automatically applied no matter what actually happened in the trial.

From what I've read

Ineffectual council is a standard appeal
The verdict is automatically appealed based not on the merit of the verdict, but the fairness of the verdict
Cruel and unusual punishment is automatically used
Judge's instructions during the trial and the penalty phase is automatically appealed.

From what I've read

Appeals based on actual evidence rules and investigative rules aren't appealed as much.

In other words its not as much the evidence as it is the verdict and the punishment.

That's about my understanding, although it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. You can't appeal factual issues, that's pretty much the standard in all cases, so pretty much all appeals come down to the way the trial played out. There may be things about admission of certain evidence etc. but a lot of it is based on jury instructions, assistance of counsel and other things of that type. There are certainly a number of appeals that are completely without merit, but when it comes down to it we're talking about state sanctioned murder here so I can tolerate a bunch of meritless appeals if it means there's one that may exonerate an innocent man.

[CaptainCrunch]

It'd be interesting to see how many appeals are filed in death penalty cases versus how many are actually listened to. And at what level of the courts.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by transplant99

When i read up on this stuff many years ago, the one common theme that came out of the exhaustive appeals process was that it seemed that "competant counsel" meant delaying things for as long as possible for a variety of reasons. That, in turn, would also skyrocket the cost of the process itself as in 99% of the cases, the state was on the hook for both prosecution and defense costs as well as the judge/courthouse etc. It seemed to me then like a catch-22 thing that the system had created to make all this stuff so expensive.

These days with the introduction of detailed DNA analysis,(in cases where it is usable) there really shouldn't be as many avenues for attorneys to exploit in the system as there used to be, but it seems like there are even more. Its why i am so torn on the whole death penalty issue. (Aside from the obvious imbalance between those who can afford good counsel and those who depend on state help)

In a case like Olson's....the guy did it. He admitted it, got paid to show where the bodies were and whatnot, so he is the perfect example of why it shouldnt cost more to house him than kill him, but because he is in Canada its a moot point anyhow.

I will be the first to admit that executing an innocent man would be the absolute worst thing the jutice system could be responsible for, which is why if there is any kind of doubt as to guilt or innocence, you err on the ide of caution and allow him to live and use the appeal process. In the case of so many others though? Fry the monsters.

DNA evidence and an ineffective assistance of counsel claim aren't at all related. An ineffective assistance claim goes to things like not objecting to a jury instruction that is clearly outside of the guidelines, not introducing evidence that clearly should have been introduced, not objecting to a question that was clearly barred etc. A failure to object to, or introduce DNA evidence could be ineffective assistance, but that's about as far as the tie goes.

I should add that a successful ineffective assistance claim is very rare. We're talking Lionel Hutz on his worst day level screw ups here.

[InglewoodFan]

Originally Posted by Locke

When you're in prison for essentially forever, what happens to these people's assets? If they owned a home, or land or whatever?

They're not dead, so they havent necessarily willed their assets to anyone. If they liquidated the assets, where does the money go?

Olson had a wife (and kid I think) at the time he was convicted, so I'm sure she ended up with the assets. Plus the $100k the RCMP gave him to tell them where the rest of the bodies were. Sickening to even think of that.

Guy was pure evil, glad to seem him almost gone.