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[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@May 11 2005, 04:14 PM
You don't see the irony? I brought out the Utopian comment (again) because you called me comrade. My belief that the EU is going to be an economic success makes me a Communist?

You have never proved that my views are utopian. You don’t think they are realistic, that’s all good, but it does not mean they are utopian.

The EU is based on one idea of collectivism; EU officials think they can make it work. Even thought collectivist Soviet Union collapsed they think their version of statist utopia, regulations and interventions will bring us a bright future. You seem to agree with them. You and the EU are inherently against capitalism and markets, i.e. you are against voluntary cooperation. You want to design a state, and through it parasitize on other people. You think you have the right to rule other people and make them do what you think is right and appropriate. You think you have the right to set boundaries of their actions and punish them if they do not obey you even though they are not aggressing against you or your property. And to me, that equals to communism.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@May 11 2005, 04:14 PM
One of us here supports government organization, the law, and social-welfare, (apparently, again, making me a Communist) and one of us supports the destruction of the nation-state, rejection of the rule of law, and a confidence that man's good nature is all we need to ensure order. Which one of us is the radical?

In other topic I said this, and you never responded. I wonder why?

Disagree with Hobbes (obviously). Its funny, Hobbes argues that in the state of nature, men would constantly be at each others’ throats (hello Agamemnon). Yet somehow he thinks that regardless of how bad men are, the king, the judge, democratically elected president (all cutthroat humans) will be magically transformed into kind human beings caring about their fellow men. In the state of nature, where men are after each other, one puts a sticker reading "state" on his forehead and suddenly he becomes an ultimate judge and peacemaker?

and

Not surprising, because it just riles me up when you repeat over and over that "FOL wants a lawless society where the guy with biggest gun takes everything." No matter how many times I say that I do NOT advocate a lawless society, you will come back with same childish claims. How would YOU react if I kept repeating in every topic that Agamemnon wants to club seal pups?

Obviously you will keep on repeating the same stuff about me being anti-law no matter how many times I say otherwise. Oh well.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty+May 12 2005, 12:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame Of Liberty @ May 12 2005, 12:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@May 11 2005, 04:14 PM
One of us here supports government organization, the law, and social-welfare, (apparently, again, making me a Communist) and one of us supports the destruction of the nation-state, rejection of the rule of law, and a confidence that man's good nature is all we need to ensure order. Which one of us is the radical?

In other topic I said this, and you never responded. I wonder why?

Disagree with Hobbes (obviously). Its funny, Hobbes argues that in the state of nature, men would constantly be at each others’ throats (hello Agamemnon). Yet somehow he thinks that regardless of how bad men are, the king, the judge, democratically elected president (all cutthroat humans) will be magically transformed into kind human beings caring about their fellow men. In the state of nature, where men are after each other, one puts a sticker reading "state" on his forehead and suddenly he becomes an ultimate judge and peacemaker?

and

Not surprising, because it just riles me up when you repeat over and over that "FOL wants a lawless society where the guy with biggest gun takes everything." No matter how many times I say that I do NOT advocate a lawless society, you will come back with same childish claims. How would YOU react if I kept repeating in every topic that Agamemnon wants to club seal pups?

Obviously you will keep on repeating the same stuff about me being anti-law no matter how many times I say otherwise. Oh well.[/b][/quote]
You still haven't said what you'd replace organized law enforcement with, after numerous questions from myself.

As far as I know (as you've said nothing to the contrary) you're relying on man's 'natural good will toward his fellows' or 'respect for other's property' as the key legal system.

This looks, sounds, and smells like a Utopian concept. I'm surprised you blame me for using that term, I think its quite apt. The quotes you've provided do nothing more than refute my claims about your ideology, because... well, apparently just because. You haven't forwarded your idea of justice beyond vague, philisophical niceties.

If you want to argue what things would be like in your dream world, that's totally cool. My dream world doesn't look a lot like this place either. But I know when to separate topics about philosophy and topics about reality. You have problems confusing the two.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty+May 12 2005, 12:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame Of Liberty @ May 12 2005, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@May 11 2005, 04:14 PM
I classify stagnation as 0% increase in the sizes of their economies, in the simplest definition.# Right now they are achieving much greater than 0% growth, so I'm of the opinion that they are not 'stagnant'.# They're growth rates, being developed countries, are not expected to be Chinese-like.# 10% growth for places like Europe and the US is next to impossible, given their current scopes.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

2005-05-12 03:04:51 The eurozone economy grew 0.5 per cent in the first quarter of 2005 from the figure for the previous quarter, an initial estimate released on Thursday by the EU's statistics arm showed.

The growth marked an improvement from monthly growth of 0.2 percent in the final quarter of last year, data from Eurostat showed.

Over 12 months, the eurozone economy expanded by 1.4 percent in the first quarter.

In the 25-nation EU, the economy also grew 0.5 percent in the first quarter from previous quarter, when 0.3 percent growth was registered. Over 12 months, the region saw growth of 1.7 percent in the first quarter.

Looking ahead, the European Union's executive commission forecast that the eurozone economy would book quarterly growth in a range from 0.2 to 0.6 percent, revising its outlook down by 0.1 percentage point. It has the same forecast for the third quarter.

http://www.eubusiness.com/topics/Factsfig


stagnation

n 1: a state of inactivity (in business or art etc); "economic growth of less than 1% per year is considered to be economic stagnation"

http://www.dictionary.com


“the EU is the most dynamic and experimental of the world's transnational organizations.”

http://www.agamemnon.com

You changed your tune a bit, but you must agree that your "most dynamic" comment was out to lunch. That goes for your "much greater than 0.5 per cent" comment.[/b][/quote]
OMG, seriously dude? Did you read your own link?

0.5%, you're right. In the FIRST QUARTER ALONE. Not for the entire year. It should be noted that when I talk about economic growth in percentage terms, the common unit of measurement is a year. If I say it grew by 2%, that means for the year, not for a month, week, or day.

Jeezus, lets at least stick to the same argument here.

The eurozone economy grew 0.5 per cent in the first quarter of 2005

The EU's growth is forecasted to be well above 1%, your 'stagnation' mark.