2011 summer of strikes

[ah123]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Not only that, but aren't council salaries decided by an impartial third-party committee?

Council salaries are tied to the average weekly earnings in the province (calculated by StatsCanada)

[getbak]

Originally Posted by WilsonFourTwo

Btw......are Bylaw Officers the ones in charge of investigating Hobo Murders?

Don't be silly. No one investigates Hobo Murders.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally Posted by Rhettzky

I'm not sure I get it. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by Sectors, could you clarify this?

I should have used a different word but I was too lazy to look it up.

There are many job types that make up the city workforce. Council members are not the same as city planners, bylaw officers, 311 operators etc.

Just because the going rate for City Councillors goes up doesn't mean that everybody should get the same raise.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Grow your weeds really long and piss off your neighbours.

My neighbour has a head start on this.

Speaking of which - would you guys phone and complain on a guy that hadn't mowed his lawn once this year yet? The grass is probably knee high, filled with weeds and looks like shat. He's surrounded by a bunch of us that take awesome care of our yards, so I can't be the only one it drives nuts.

[Northendzone]

on the surface the optics of what the concillers rec'd vs what the city is offering this group of ee's does not look good; however, one also needs to understand the total comp package - for example i used to see Ric M at various events on the weekends and evenings - which lead me to wonder how many hours he is actually working - if he was working 80hrs per week - then is a raise of 4.0% not about equal to a a raise of 2% for someone working 40 hrs per week.

We all want to make more money, but nobody wants to pay more for anything........

[Devils'Advocate]

Wages are not the only thing that unions work on.

In my last private sector job I saw:
- someone promoted to project manager, not because he was most qualified but because he agreed with the boss that in exchange for the promotion he would join the company hockey team (the guy was an ex-OHL player)
- an experienced 50 year old programmer was hitting on a new university graduate. The girl complained to management saying that she didn't want to make a big deal out of it, but if someone could talk to the guy she would appreciate it. A week later she was "let go". The company needed the skills of the older programmer and in the grand scheme of things, she was expendible.
- we were required to do 10 to 15 hours of mandatory overtime when we fell behind schedule. One employee said that he could not do the 10 hours because he was taking care of his ill and dying mother. Our project leader told him he was exempt from the mandatory overtime. That afternoon she was let go. Story is that she went against the head honcho's directive and was canned for it.

I brought these up these examples in other thread and people say "well, they could have gone to court and sued". It's not that easy. Human Rights cases sometimes take 6 years to resolve. Going to court is slow, expensive (especially if you don't win) and stressful. And usually you are going it alone - it is you and your lawyer.

If I had a grievance where I think someone was promoted ahead of me because for reasons other than compentence, or I was dismissed for unjust reasons, or I was otherwise mistreated by management, I would want my union to go to for help and advice.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Anyhow, I'm reading the news web sites comments on these strikes and there seems to be a common theme to the comments. "These people make too much money. They have to learn to live with less." It would seem that everyone seems to think that they themselves warrant a bigger paycheque, but everyone else on the planet should be making less. Johnny the firefighter, Sally the schoolteacher, Tina the web designer, Joe the postal carrier, Toby the Air Canada attendant... all greedy, spoiled, rich people. But me.... *I* deserve more money because I work really hard.... my employer should pay ME more. But nobody else.

[Byrns]

Originally Posted by Sliver

My neighbour has a head start on this.

Speaking of which - would you guys phone and complain on a guy that hadn't mowed his lawn once this year yet? The grass is probably knee high, filled with weeds and looks like shat. He's surrounded by a bunch of us that take awesome care of our yards, so I can't be the only one it drives nuts.

Yes

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

In my last private sector job I saw:
- someone promoted to project manager, not because he was most qualified but because he agreed with the boss that in exchange for the promotion he would join the company hockey team (the guy was an ex-OHL player)
- an experienced 50 year old programmer was hitting on a new university graduate. The girl complained to management saying that she didn't want to make a big deal out of it, but if someone could talk to the guy she would appreciate it. A week later she was "let go". The company needed the skills of the older programmer and in the grand scheme of things, she was expendible.
- we were required to do 10 to 15 hours of mandatory overtime when we fell behind schedule. One employee said that he could not do the 10 hours because he was taking care of his ill and dying mother. Our project leader told him he was exempt from the mandatory overtime. That afternoon she was let go. Story is that she went against the head honcho's directive and was canned for it.

You worked for a crappy company.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Wages are not the only thing that unions work on.

In my last private sector job I saw:
- someone promoted to project manager, not because he was most qualified but because he agreed with the boss that in exchange for the promotion he would join the company hockey team (the guy was an ex-OHL else.

I have no problem with unions(the place I work at is union)but unions do not guarantee that the most qualified get the position either . Seniority usually dictates who gets promoted,and I have seem some near disastrous results due to that policy.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Anyhow, I'm reading the news web sites comments on these strikes and there seems to be a common theme to the comments. "These people make too much money. They have to learn to live with less." It would seem that everyone seems to think that they themselves warrant a bigger paycheque, but everyone else on the planet should be making less. Johnny the firefighter, Sally the schoolteacher, Tina the web designer, Joe the postal carrier, Toby the Air Canada attendant... all greedy, spoiled, rich people. But me.... *I* deserve more money because I work really hard.... my employer should pay ME more. But nobody else.

In no way are any of the people above 'rich.' I think people just oppose people making a career out of two of the above jobs at the expense of efficient market wages. Seriously, being a check-in clerk at the airport shouldn't be a career with a Defined Benefit pension plan. Nor should delivering mail, especially when the union is most likely the biggest obstacle to super mail boxes going up in old communities. Equivalent jobs in the private sector do not come with the benefits, pay, and job security that these roles come with.

Unionized web designers? What a joke!

I think the real problem here is that the world changed from 30 years ago and those who joined up with Air Canada at that time thought they could be entitled to a middle class existance in perpetuity without having to put in any effort outside of work hours to upgrade their skills or become more productive.

I witnessed this fall from grace first hand as a teenager and then University student working at Safeway. There was a time where people who stocked shelves at grocery stores made $25/hour with full benefits in a world where the cost of living was half as much. These people were the most bitter people on Earth when the new contracts came in bringing their wages down to $18/hour, nominally $7/hr less than 10 years prior. The other side of the coin though is that these people were as productive as 16 year olds making $7.50/hr. Somehow, someway, wages had to reflect that reality and not the romantic notion of one job for life that pays a healthy middle class wage. If the union got what they asked for each collective bargaining agreement, Safeway would have never had a chance to compete and everyone is out of a job.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Wages are not the only thing that unions work on.

In my last private sector job I saw:
- someone promoted to project manager, not because he was most qualified but because he agreed with the boss that in exchange for the promotion he would join the company hockey team (the guy was an ex-OHL player)
- an experienced 50 year old programmer was hitting on a new university graduate. The girl complained to management saying that she didn't want to make a big deal out of it, but if someone could talk to the guy she would appreciate it. A week later she was "let go". The company needed the skills of the older programmer and in the grand scheme of things, she was expendible.
- we were required to do 10 to 15 hours of mandatory overtime when we fell behind schedule. One employee said that he could not do the 10 hours because he was taking care of his ill and dying mother. Our project leader told him he was exempt from the mandatory overtime. That afternoon she was let go. Story is that she went against the head honcho's directive and was canned for it.

I brought these up these examples in other thread and people say "well, they could have gone to court and sued". It's not that easy. Human Rights cases sometimes take 6 years to resolve. Going to court is slow, expensive (especially if you don't win) and stressful. And usually you are going it alone - it is you and your lawyer.

If I had a grievance where I think someone was promoted ahead of me because for reasons other than compentence, or I was dismissed for unjust reasons, or I was otherwise mistreated by management, I would want my union to go to for help and advice.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Anyhow, I'm reading the news web sites comments on these strikes and there seems to be a common theme to the comments. "These people make too much money. They have to learn to live with less." It would seem that everyone seems to think that they themselves warrant a bigger paycheque, but everyone else on the planet should be making less. Johnny the firefighter, Sally the schoolteacher, Tina the web designer, Joe the postal carrier, Toby the Air Canada attendant... all greedy, spoiled, rich people. But me.... *I* deserve more money because I work really hard.... my employer should pay ME more. But nobody else.

Good examples of how bad management evetntually causes unions to appear.

Similarly, strong but irresponsible unions will eventually create strong management.

Bob Goodenow was the result of overbearing ownership in the early 1990's while Gary Bettman, even as he came to office in 1993, wasn't truly powerful until 2004 when ownership finally recognized how hopelessly outclassed they were by Goodenow.

Bad management causes unions.

Strong unions create strong management.

Through time you have seen this lesson sinking into management circles, that the best way to operate is to treat employees with some sense of respect and decency and expect the same in return through accountability. They'll probably work for less for you, won't strike much and you'll make more money.

Not universally appreciated though.

Cowperson

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Sliver

My neighbour has a head start on this.

Speaking of which - would you guys phone and complain on a guy that hadn't mowed his lawn once this year yet? The grass is probably knee high, filled with weeds and looks like shat. He's surrounded by a bunch of us that take awesome care of our yards, so I can't be the only one it drives nuts.

I would be tempted to pour some herbicide in penis patters on his lawn at night...At least that way if he didn't mow it I could laugh about it.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Wages are not the only thing that unions work on.

In my last private sector job I saw:
- someone promoted to project manager, not because he was most qualified but because he agreed with the boss that in exchange for the promotion he would join the company hockey team (the guy was an ex-OHL player)
- an experienced 50 year old programmer was hitting on a new university graduate. The girl complained to management saying that she didn't want to make a big deal out of it, but if someone could talk to the guy she would appreciate it. A week later she was "let go". The company needed the skills of the older programmer and in the grand scheme of things, she was expendible.
- we were required to do 10 to 15 hours of mandatory overtime when we fell behind schedule. One employee said that he could not do the 10 hours because he was taking care of his ill and dying mother. Our project leader told him he was exempt from the mandatory overtime. That afternoon she was let go. Story is that she went against the head honcho's directive and was canned for it.

I brought these up these examples in other thread and people say "well, they could have gone to court and sued". It's not that easy. Human Rights cases sometimes take 6 years to resolve. Going to court is slow, expensive (especially if you don't win) and stressful. And usually you are going it alone - it is you and your lawyer.

If I had a grievance where I think someone was promoted ahead of me because for reasons other than compentence, or I was dismissed for unjust reasons, or I was otherwise mistreated by management, I would want my union to go to for help and advice.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Anyhow, I'm reading the news web sites comments on these strikes and there seems to be a common theme to the comments. "These people make too much money. They have to learn to live with less." It would seem that everyone seems to think that they themselves warrant a bigger paycheque, but everyone else on the planet should be making less. Johnny the firefighter, Sally the schoolteacher, Tina the web designer, Joe the postal carrier, Toby the Air Canada attendant... all greedy, spoiled, rich people. But me.... *I* deserve more money because I work really hard.... my employer should pay ME more. But nobody else.

Your company sounds like a labour lawyers wet dream.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Your company sounds like a labour lawyers wet dream.

You said that in another thread. If a company is allowed to let someone go "without cause" and pay them their two weeks, how do you prove otherwise.

Take the case of the girl that just graduated university. She goes to management saying she is being harassed by a senior programmer. Nothing in writing, just a "by the way" sort of thing. The next week management take her aside and say "we are making some cutbacks and your services won't be needed anymore". We all know the deal... we know why she was let go. I had to chase that guy out of her office on numerous occassions. But to PROVE - IN COURT - that she was let go because of her complaint would be hard to do.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I think the real problem here is that the world changed from 30 years ago and those who joined up with Air Canada at that time thought they could be entitled to a middle class existance in perpetuity without having to put in any effort outside of work hours to upgrade their skills or become more productive.

In those 30 years, have all managers and owners stopped being greedy and now refuse to exploit/abuse workers if they are able to do so?

Unions are neither perfect nor useless.

Btw, I strongly agree with you that some people have very wrong ideas when it comes to career/wage entitlement.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

You said that in another thread. If a company is allowed to let someone go "without cause" and pay them their two weeks, how do you prove otherwise.

Take the case of the girl that just graduated university. She goes to management saying she is being harassed by a senior programmer. Nothing in writing, just a "by the way" sort of thing. The next week management take her aside and say "we are making some cutbacks and your services won't be needed anymore". We all know the deal... we know why she was let go. I had to chase that guy out of her office on numerous occassions. But to PROVE - IN COURT - that she was let go because of her complaint would be hard to do.

Unless you aren't willing to testify truthfully under oath it looks pretty easy actually.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

In my last private sector job I saw:
- someone promoted to project manager, not because he was most qualified but because he agreed with the boss that in exchange for the promotion he would join the company hockey team (the guy was an ex-OHL player)

Be that as it may, unions aren't mostly there to fight for justice but are there to squeeze more money and benefits out of an already generous corporation. City employees and postal workers are already enjoying benefits the envy of private sector employees and that's still not enough.

Who, in this day and age, work for the city or Canada Post to fulfill lifelong career dreams? No, they are there so that they can slack off and not worry about getting fired.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Unionized web designers? What a joke!

I think the real problem here is that the world changed from 30 years ago and those who joined up with Air Canada at that time thought they could be entitled to a middle class existance in perpetuity without having to put in any effort outside of work hours to upgrade their skills or become more productive.

I witnessed this fall from grace first hand as a teenager and then University student working at Safeway. There was a time where people who stocked shelves at grocery stores made $25/hour with full benefits in a world where the cost of living was half as much. These people were the most bitter people on Earth when the new contracts came in bringing their wages down to $18/hour, nominally $7/hr less than 10 years prior. The other side of the coin though is that these people were as productive as 16 year olds making $7.50/hr. Somehow, someway, wages had to reflect that reality and not the romantic notion of one job for life that pays a healthy middle class wage. If the union got what they asked for each collective bargaining agreement, Safeway would have never had a chance to compete and everyone is out of a job.

Quoted for truth. One of the biggest problems with some union workers is that they think they are entitled to a middle class wage performing a job that requires no education, qualification or training.

[MarchHare]

Who, in this day and age, work for the city or Canada Post to fulfill lifelong career dreams? No, they are there so that they can slack off and not worry about getting fired.

Don't generalize.

As I said above, my wife works for the City (in a unionized position, although she would rather be non-unionized if it was an option) and she is anything but a slacker. She has three university degrees (a Bachelors from McGill and a Bachelors and Masters from UofC), and is thinking of completing a Ph.D. in a few years. She works as a planner for the city because it's the best place for someone of her qualifications to fulfill her lifelong career dreams.

Plus, as I mentioned earlier, she will be working through the strike if her union decides to go that route.

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by darklord700

Be that as it may, unions aren't mostly there to fight for justice but are there to squeeze more money and benefits out of an already generous corporation. City employees and postal workers are already enjoy benefits the envy of public sector employees and that's still not enough.

Who, in this day and age, work for the city or Canada Post to fulfill lifelong career dreams? No, they are there so that they can slack off and not worry about getting fired.

Pretty ignorant comment and I'm not quite sure if you're for real or not. But yes, thousands of people that work at the City care very much about their related fields and their career development. And no, we are not the envy of the public sector. Maybe in terms of benefits and pensions, but there is no way you can compare a municipal workers wage with his private sector counterpart. Especially in the oil industry.