Montreal Police get wreckless (2 dead)

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I took two years of Police Foundations at Fanshawe College. I also had half a term in at the Aylmer Police College when I was in my MVC. I guess your point is valid if he was running at people threatening them with the knife however if the reports that he had brandished the knife at officers and then took off and they were in pursuit and fired shots at him then that is against police procedure. I have a hard time believing he was running from police and threatening innocent people with a knife at the same time. I can tell you that if a guy came at me with a knife that I have had hand to hand training in our Use Of Force section and if I had fellow officers with me I would either be one of the officers with a weapon drawn asking the offender to drop the knife and get on the ground or I would be an officer disarming him because to be honest if you know how to do it disarming somebody with a knife isn't that hard. Even if I was going to use my firearm it would only be if the offender was trying to harm me, a citizen, or a fellow officer which does not sound like the case here. Your firearm is your very very last resort!

Where to start...

I find it strange in your mistrust in police and police training considering you state it was something you were interested in as a career path.

IF we are to believe media reports, it does say he fled. Did he stop and turn? Was he running towards a civilian? There could be countless scenarios, so why would you chose to dismiss them so quickly?

Firing shots at someone fleeing is against police procedure? What if the guy is running down the road with a gun? A knife? A bomb?

Say I'm pissed off at life. I threatened to kill someone and then I decide to wander the streets aimlessly carrying said knife open and visible. I am not making overt threats anymore but am ignore police instruction to lay the knife down or even stop. Is this lethal force? At what point does it become lethal force? Let's say I wander into a school yard. Lethal force?

Your education (to be honest I have no idea what those places are that you mentioned) betrays you when you talk about "hand to hand" and a knife fight in the same sentence. How bout this, you get 4 buddies and I get one knife. ALL of you get to disarm me. Sure, you eventually will, but one of you is going to get a knife in the throat. Will it be you? What if I put a gun in your hand? Does that seem like the smarter choice?

The part I bolded, how are you coming to this conclusion?

Your are wrong about the firearm being the last resort. The firearm may be your ONLY resort if faced with a lethal force encounter.

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Probably because many officers do not carry tasers or riot guns. If they did have access to a taser then that will make it even worse for them.

For a guy with "police" training, I am surprised you don't know this.

Knife enounters are LETHAL FORCE encounters. There is no other response, unless certain conditions are met, to use a lesser option, like a taser.

In addition, tasers are not always effective, nor accurate and are simply are poor choice when faced with death or grievous bodily harm.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Where to start...

I find it strange in your mistrust in police and police training considering you state it was something you were interested in as a career path.

IF we are to believe media reports, it does say he fled. Did he stop and turn? Was he running towards a civilian? There could be countless scenarios, so why would you chose to dismiss them so quickly?

Firing shots at someone fleeing is against police procedure? What if the guy is running down the road with a gun? A knife? A bomb?

Say I'm pissed off at life. I threatened to kill someone and then I decide to wander the streets aimlessly carrying said knife open and visible. I am not making overt threats anymore but am ignore police instruction to lay the knife down or even stop. Is this lethal force? At what point does it become lethal force? Let's say I wander into a school yard. Lethal force?

Your education (to be honest I have no idea what those places are that you mentioned) betrays you when you talk about "hand to hand" and a knife fight in the same sentence. How bout this, you get 4 buddies and I get one knife. ALL of you get to disarm me. Sure, you eventually will, but one of you is going to get a knife in the throat. Will it be you? What if I put a gun in your hand? Does that seem like the smarter choice?

The part I bolded, how are you coming to this conclusion?

Your are wrong about the firearm being the last resort. The firearm may be your ONLY resort if faced with a lethal force encounter.

You are never supposed to discharge a firearm with civilians in the backround or line of fire. Doesn't really matter what the story is.

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

You are never supposed to discharge a firearm with civilians in the backround or line of fire. Doesn't really matter what the story is.

Agreed. If there are people IN the line of fire, of course one wouldn't fire.

But police are trained to be 'aware' of whats between and beyond, doesn't mean they can't shoot.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Agreed. If there are people IN the line of fire, of course one wouldn't fire.

But police are trained to be 'aware' of whats between and beyond, doesn't mean they can't shoot.

It would seem that in this particular instance they weren't very 'aware' now would it.

If someone is in the backround you are not supposed to shoot, at least not under the circumstances described in the article.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Also wanted to add......

If a guy is hunting, shoots at prey standing in front of a lake, the bullet skips across the lake and kills someone on the other side, guess what's happening to me? Jail

This is comparable, but worse.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Where to start...

I find it strange in your mistrust in police and police training considering you state it was something you were interested in as a career path.

IF we are to believe media reports, it does say he fled. Did he stop and turn? Was he running towards a civilian? There could be countless scenarios, so why would you chose to dismiss them so quickly?

Firing shots at someone fleeing is against police procedure? What if the guy is running down the road with a gun? A knife? A bomb?

Say I'm pissed off at life. I threatened to kill someone and then I decide to wander the streets aimlessly carrying said knife open and visible. I am not making overt threats anymore but am ignore police instruction to lay the knife down or even stop. Is this lethal force? At what point does it become lethal force? Let's say I wander into a school yard. Lethal force?

Your education (to be honest I have no idea what those places are that you mentioned) betrays you when you talk about "hand to hand" and a knife fight in the same sentence. How bout this, you get 4 buddies and I get one knife. ALL of you get to disarm me. Sure, you eventually will, but one of you is going to get a knife in the throat. Will it be you? What if I put a gun in your hand? Does that seem like the smarter choice?

The part I bolded, how are you coming to this conclusion?

Your are wrong about the firearm being the last resort. The firearm may be your ONLY resort if faced with a lethal force encounter.

I am not even going to debate this with you anymore. You have gone into the realm of ridiculous here. I can guarantee that unless you were coming at one of us from behind you pretty much have zero chance of putting a knife in a trained officers throat. I am not wrong about a firearm being your last resort, it is the reason why some officers hesitate in lethal situations and get killed.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I am not even going to debate this with you anymore. You have gone into the realm of ridiculous here. I can guarantee that unless you were coming at one of us from behind you pretty much have zero chance of putting a knife in a trained officers throat. I am not wrong about a firearm being your last resort, it is the reason why some officers hesitate in lethal situations and get killed.

I mean no disrespect to you dt, but cops all over Canada are trained knife = gun from a response perspective. Any sort of "hand to hand" combat with a knife is simply to deflect a slash/stab and than draw your firearm in close quarters with short distance between yourself and the offender and firing.

I'm not sure how long you experienced this training or what, but the way things aren't like that now.

Furthermore, if it truly was a ricochet, I'd be curious on ammunition type, as the majority of law enforcement ammunition is designed to avoid ricochet and "mushroom" upon impact.

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I am not even going to debate this with you anymore. You have gone into the realm of ridiculous here. I can guarantee that unless you were coming at one of us from behind you pretty much have zero chance of putting a knife in a trained officers throat. I am not wrong about a firearm being your last resort, it is the reason why some officers hesitate in lethal situations and get killed.

You didn't really answer any of my questions.

Although my examples seem ridiculous, I bring them up to hopefully make you see a different viewpoint. That what you read or heard is generally, far from the truth.

You are so quick to condemn the cops here based on little to no information.

I mean no disrespect, but your police 'education' has either failed you or you aren't telling the truth.

I am not wrong about a firearm being your last resort, it is the reason why some officers hesitate in lethal situations and get killed.

Actually there are a multitude of factors that contribute to this. We can debate this to if you like. Based on you training, I am sure you are an expert. If you need to brush up, Dave Grossman's book 'On Killing' is a good start.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by jar_e

I mean no disrespect to you dt, but cops all over Canada are trained knife = gun from a response perspective. Any sort of "hand to hand" combat with a knife is simply to deflect a slash/stab and than draw your firearm in close quarters with short distance between yourself and the offender and firing.

I'm not sure how long you experienced this training or what, but the way things aren't like that now.

Furthermore, if it truly was a ricochet, I'd be curious on ammunition type, as the majority of law enforcement ammunition is designed to avoid ricochet and "mushroom" upon impact.

If you read what I wrote you will see that I said guns would be drawn when a knife came out. What I stated was that you cannot shoot a person who is running from you if he has a knife but at that moment is not threatening the safety nor lives of anybody. You can't do it. Most of the fellow students and officers I trained with would almost always resort to another tactic when dealing with a knife other than lethal force. Can you use lethal force if your life is threatened by a man wielding a knife. Absolutely. You can also with multiple officers restrain him, spray him, tase him, or do anything else in your power to take down the offender without loss of life. Is it riskier that way? You bet but that comes with that career. You are there to protect and serve the public and the last thing you want to do is kill somebody if it doesn't have to happen, even if you have the right to. The bottom line is it sounds like there was 4 officers who were trying to do it the right way, they are in a downtown district and buddy pulls a knife and they probably pulled their firearms and told him to drop the weapon and get down. Buddy takes off instead and they pursue him and during the pursuit one of those officers did the wrong thing and started shooting. Now unless the guy was running at people swinging that knife or endangering somebody he did the wrong thing and someone innocent ended up dead because of it. Then again, maybe he looked like he was going to attack somebody, I wasn't there but it seems kinda far fetched that this guy is running from the cops and all the sudden starts threatening people while running. The SIU will get the whole story and they will decide in the end.

[jar_e]

nm.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

disarming somebody with a knife isn't that hard.

Nothing personal, but that might be the funniest thing I have heard in a long time. Do you have any clue how wrong you are? Knives are super dangerous and cops respond with guns when someone pulls one out.

After much assorted martial arts training I came to realize that a knife is way too dangerous to deal with. Everything i was ever taught about knives might look cool but i am pretty sure will not work.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

It would seem that in this particular instance they weren't very 'aware' now would it.

If someone is in the backround you are not supposed to shoot, at least not under the circumstances described in the article.

The bullet ricocheted...did you even read the article?

[YYC in LAX]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

Also wanted to add......

If a guy is hunting, shoots at prey standing in front of a lake, the bullet skips across the lake and kills someone on the other side, guess what's happening to me? Jail

This is comparable, but worse.

Why would you go to jail is "a guy" kills someone on the other side. Are you even on the hunting trip? Just doesn't seem fair that you would have to go to jail.