Second Annual Draw Mohammed Day: May 20

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

No one would be drawing Mohammed if Muslims just believed it was offensive to draw him and therefore didn't draw him themselves.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Tomorrow should be call a black person "n*****" day!

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Tomorrow should be call a black person "n*****" day!

Not really sure it's the same thing. Our society puts a lot of emphasis on freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Both concepts necessitate the freedom to be able to do things like critique religions without fearing violence. So in order for our society to function, certain aspects of religion have to be kept private. You basically need to practice your own religion without telling other people how to practice their's.

Our society puts little value on hatred towards people's ethnicity/race. Although it is perfectly legal to go up to a black person and refer to them as a n******, you're unlikely to get much support from others in doing so. Furthermore, it's very hard to do that without suggesting violence. Noone here is walking up to random muslim people on the street and shouting derogatory names at them. That too would likely to get you much support. You've essentially got a difference between harrassing an individual and critiquing an idea.

In a lot of situations it is a fine line, but hating on a religion definitely is not the same thing as hating an ethnicity/race.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Legal case is still wending its way through the Pakistani legal system, but it's looking like Facebook may be banned permanently. LINK

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by blankall

Not really sure it's the same thing. Our society puts a lot of emphasis on freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Both concepts necessitate the freedom to be able to do things like critique religions without fearing violence. So in order for our society to function, certain aspects of religion have to be kept private. You basically need to practice your own religion without telling other people how to practice their's.

Our society puts little value on hatred towards people's ethnicity/race. Although it is perfectly legal to go up to a black person and refer to them as a n******, you're unlikely to get much support from others in doing so. Furthermore, it's very hard to do that without suggesting violence. Noone here is walking up to random muslim people on the street and shouting derogatory names at them. That too would likely to get you much support. You've essentially got a difference between harrassing an individual and critiquing an idea.

In a lot of situations it is a fine line, but hating on a religion definitely is not the same thing as hating an ethnicity/race.

You are still knowingly and intentionally offending a group of people. That's not all that different from racism. Whether its done in print, online, or in person doesn't really change it. This whole thing is basically saying "yeah we are dissing you, what are you gonna do about it?".

I am still convinced that people that want to participate in this are closet bigots more than defenders of free speech. Blanketly insulting an entire faith of people is not satire, justice, or anything like that. Its basically giving a big middle finger to people different from you, just because you want to.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Igottago

You are still knowingly and intentionally offending a group of people. That's not all that different from racism. Whether its done in print, online, or in person doesn't really change it. This whole thing is basically saying "yeah we are dissing you, what are you gonna do about it?".

Their sensibilities do not trump the rights of others to free expression. They are not forced to view offensive material.

I am still convinced that people that want to participate in this are closet bigots more than defenders of free speech.

No doubt there are those who would take advantage of the opportunity to spew hate.

Blanketly insulting an entire faith of people is not satire, justice, or anything like that. Its basically giving a big middle finger to people different from you, just because you want to.

Killing people for disagreeing with your faith is the greatest possible evil.

[malcolmk14]

I work on a floor with about 50 people, about half of which are Muslim. If I were to draw out a picture of Mohammed and tape it to my office door, that's not free speech. That's offensive and obnoxious and I would probably be fired for it, and rightfully so.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

I work on a floor with about 50 people, about half of which are Muslim. If I were to draw out a picture of Mohammed and tape it to my office door, that's not free speech. That's offensive and obnoxious and I would probably be fired for it, and rightfully so.

Companies have policies regarding how offices are decorated. I imagine photos of the Pope or Stephen Harper wouldn't be allowed either. And rightly so.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

So, to the anti-draw Mohammed day people:

You guys realize the devout Muslims are under no obligation to look at these drawings right?

I burn bibles all the time in my fireplace. They're easy to come by and make great kindling. No one has ever complained.

If I stood outside a Catholic Church and did it I could see why people would be pissed.

If people are marching through the streets with pics of Mohammed it is offensive but people can choose not to look. If I stand outside a Mosque that is pretty ######y.

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Companies have policies regarding how offices are decorated. I imagine photos of the Pope or Stephen Harper wouldn't be allowed either. And rightly so.

That's a fair point, actually. I'm actually curious to get your opinion on something else. During Ramadan, half of our floor fasts from sunrise to sunset. So during the day at work, they're starving.

Obviously it's their own religion that says they shouldn't eat during daylight hours, but as a token of acknowledgement for the people we work with, we get rid of all the fruit and granola bars on our floor for that month, and for the most part close our office doors or eat downstairs in the lobby during meal times. Would you say that we're being oversensitive?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

That's a fair point, actually. I'm actually curious to get your opinion on something else. During Ramadan, half of our floor fasts from sunrise to sunset. So during the day at work, they're starving.

Obviously it's their own religion that says they shouldn't eat during daylight hours, but as a token of acknowledgement for the people we work with, we get rid of all the fruit and granola bars on our floor for that month, and for the most part close our office doors or eat downstairs in the lobby during meal times. Would you say that we're being oversensitive?

Do you have a lunch room?

If yes, then yes that is oversensitive. It might be rude to talk about the juicy steak you're eating for lunch though.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Igottago

You are still knowingly and intentionally offending a group of people. That's not all that different from racism. Whether its done in print, online, or in person doesn't really change it. This whole thing is basically saying "yeah we are dissing you, what are you gonna do about it?".

It is different than racism. People have no right to have their religious ideals upheld by others. People have no right not to be offended. If you can't draw Mohammed, where do you draw the line. Are you going to stop eating cow, because Hindus find it offensive? Or pork because Jews find it offensive?

Originally Posted by Igottago

I am still convinced that people that want to participate in this are closet bigots more than defenders of free speech. Blanketly insulting an entire faith of people is not satire, justice, or anything like that. Its basically giving a big middle finger to people different from you, just because you want to.

This I agree with you on. Many of the people who participate are more than just closet biggots; they are full on bigots. All though I do support the idea of EDMD and the rights of people to actually draw Mohammed, I don't participate for this reason. It has essentially become a lightning rod for Islamophobia.

So...basically what I am saying is that theoretically EDMD could be used to protect the ideals of freedom of speech, but many people are clearly not using it for that. I, however, take no issue with those that are participating in EDMD for the purpose of freedom of expression/religion. Threats (and in some cases full on acts of violence and murder) have been made and they have every right to stand up to those threats.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

That's a fair point, actually. I'm actually curious to get your opinion on something else. During Ramadan, half of our floor fasts from sunrise to sunset. So during the day at work, they're starving.

Obviously it's their own religion that says they shouldn't eat during daylight hours, but as a token of acknowledgement for the people we work with, we get rid of all the fruit and granola bars on our floor for that month, and for the most part close our office doors or eat downstairs in the lobby during meal times. Would you say that we're being oversensitive?

I'd say you guys are lucky in that you get a meal break to begin with.

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Do you have a lunch room?

If yes, then yes that is oversensitive. It might be rude to talk about the juicy steak you're eating for lunch though.

No lunch room.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by blankall

It is different than racism. People have no right to have their religious ideals upheld by others. People have no right not to be offended. If you can't draw Mohammed, where do you draw the line. Are you going to stop eating cow, because Hindus find it offensive? Or pork because Jews find it offensive?

I never said you shouldn't be allowed to draw Mohammed. I just think its silly do to so with the explicit purpose of irritating a group of people.

I eat beef and pork but don't go around rallying support for it in order to display my support for freedom of beef/pork consumption. I don't feel the need to get in someone's face about it like this draw Mohammed Day is attempting to get in the face of Muslim people.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I never said you shouldn't be allowed to draw Mohammed. I just think its silly do to so with the explicit purpose of irritating a group of people.

I eat beef and pork but don't go around rallying support for it in order to display my support for freedom of beef/pork consumption. I don't feel the need to get in someone's face about it like this draw Mohammed Day is attempting to get in the face of Muslim people.

Just like I really hate that "get-in-your-face" act of beheading someone over an opinion.

That's what needs to be challenged.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I never said you shouldn't be allowed to draw Mohammed. I just think its silly do to so with the explicit purpose of irritating a group of people.

I eat beef and pork but don't go around rallying support for it in order to display my support for freedom of beef/pork consumption. I don't feel the need to get in someone's face about it like this draw Mohammed Day is attempting to get in the face of Muslim people.

If someone had threatened your life and murdered people because they had eaten pork, the situation might be different.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Just like I really hate that "get-in-your-face" act of beheading someone over an opinion.

That's what needs to be challenged.

Do you refuse to separate radical Islam from the normal Islam?

I wonder why Muslims get frustrated when people are so willing to throw them all in the same basket.

There is a massive difference between people that venerate and agree with people like Sayyid Quibt (sp) and people that just want people to respect their belief system.

I'm sure that the radical groups just love this day because it just drives angry and disenfranchised into their waiting arms.

Basically things like Draw Mohammed day are just playing into the hands of the radical nutjobs.

[Ben_in_Canada]

Interesting article from the 'Europe News' from 2007
http://europenews.dk/en/node/6517

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Do you refuse to separate radical Islam from the normal Islam?

Sure.

People are still dying though.

I wonder why Muslims get frustrated when people are so willing to throw them all in the same basket.

There is a massive difference between people that venerate and agree with people like Sayyid Quibt (sp) and people that just want people to respect their belief system.

I'm under no obligation to respect their belief system. I do respect their right to practice their faith as long as it does not infringe on my freedoms.

I'm sure that the radical groups just love this day because it just drives angry and disenfranchised into their waiting arms.

Basically things like Draw Mohammed day are just playing into the hands of the radical nutjobs.

They are powerless to stop it.