No-Limit vs Limit

[transplant99]

NL all the way.

Both have their pros and cons, but for excitement and "fun", NL is heads and tails better than limited bets.

I had the worst beat of my life two days ago, on a pot for 106.00.

I was dealt pocket Aces, flopped another one along with a K and a 6. Bet on it, was re-raised, called, then another K comes on the turn, so I go all in and get called. The other guy had pocket K's. That hurt. But i kept on playing...as..."thats poker sometimes".

[jam26]

Originally posted by transplant99@Apr 28 2005, 01:26 PM
NL all the way.

Both have their pros and cons, but for excitement and "fun", NL is heads and tails better than limited bets.

I had the worst beat of my life two days ago, on a pot for 106.00.

I was dealt pocket Aces, flopped another one along with a K and a 6. Bet on it, was re-raised, called, then another K comes on the turn, so I go all in and get called. The other guy had pocket K's. That hurt. But i kept on playing...as..."thats poker sometimes".

Those pocket Aces get ya every time!

[BlackEleven]

Originally posted by VANFLAMESFAN@Apr 27 2005, 09:53 PM

SLow Playing is just for idiots..............

Slow playing can be good in the right situation ... slow playing top pair is for idiots, however if you flop the nuts, its not a bad play.

For example, one time I was playing in a no-limit tourney and I had A5 in the big blind, everyone folds except the guy to my left. Flop comes AA5 with two spades. This is good for slow play because you want someone to make thie flush which you will beat with your full house. So I check, he checks, turn comes and its blank, river comes and its a spade. I bet the minimum (just so I can get some moeny out of him) then he comes over the top with an all-in. I call right away and sure enough he has the K of spades and another spade for the nut flush. He wasn't too happy when he saw my boat.

If I had made a big bet on the flop, he likely would have folded, so the slow play worked for me there.

[evman150]

No limit is much more entertaining, but I think a lot of you are selling Limit short. Limit is a game about math and odds, and I can appreciate that. Limit is about finding small edges and exploiting them over time. You can't fight the math in limit. There is very little in regards to implied odds unlike NL, so it's way more about playing a mathematically sound game. For someone looking to make money playing poker, limit is the easiest way to do it with the least risk. If you are a good player and learn to play limit well, beating any 1/2 or 2/4 is not that difficult. It can still be swingy, but not nearly as much as NL.

Doyle Brunson calls NL the "Cadillac of poker games". And there is a reason why the main event at the WSOP is NLTHE. A lot of people can play holdem pretty decently, and a lot of people can make money consistently at limit. But NL is totally different. It is a lot harder to make money consistently over time, and it is a lot harder to become "great". No limit is about taking advantage of bad players and their bad plays. You have top two pair while buddy is on a flush draw? Give him poor odds on his call. If he folds, you win the pot. If he calls, he has made an improper call that will mathematically win you money over time. These are the most important plays in NL. Always have the best of it. Always give your opponents bad odds. Make players make mistakes against you.

Here's a good example. I had a guy call off his last 10 bucks into an 8 dollar pot with a flush draw when I had top two pair. He was paying ten to win eighteen. So he was getting 9:5 on his call while the odds of him hitting were 4:1. That's like me and someone flipping a coin and me saying if I win you give me five bucks and if you win I'll give you three bucks. Sounds ridiculous? Of course, but these are the kinds of terrible decisions people make.

Of course the guy hit his flush on the river and won the 28 dollar pot. But that doesn't matter. And that's the beauty of the game. Each single pot doesn't matter. It's about making sound decisions and exploiting bad players' mistakes and making them PAY. If you do that you will win over time.

My favourite game is actually not NL holdem though. I am actually a 7 stud player. You can find me at the .5/1 limit 7 stud tables on the Prima Network. The only thing that feels better than pocket aces in holdem is getting rolled up trips in 7 stud. MAN, does that feel great! And then catching quads on the river for good measure!

[evman150]

Originally posted by Mcgavins@Apr 27 2005, 05:28 PM
NL is definitely fun when playing with buddies and no one really cares in the end.

Saying that, when I play in the casino or on-line (especially Omaha) I always play pot limit - it's fantastic and the dollars still get up there.

Pot limit is a good compromise if your friends only play limit and don't like the "all-in" aspect of NL. With PL you can't go allin preflop (unless there's HUGE action), but the pots can still get pretty nice sized.

Spread limit is another interesting game. If you normally play 1/2 Limit, try playing .25/2.5 - .5/5 spread limit, where the bet before the flop and on the flop can be anywhere between 25 cents and 2.50 and on 4th and 5th between 50 cents and five bucks. Or some multiple of those numbers.

As for bluffing, I agree it is overrated. I pretty much never stone cold bluff. I will take shots at pots, or semi bluff when I'm on a draw in position, but I will not just bet with nothing in hopes of taking the pot. It's a big time money losing play IMO.

Slowplaying - Almost never slow play AA before the flop. This is a big mistake a lot of newbies make. Only time you would do this is if you are first to act with AA you can smooth call and look to put in a big reraise when someone behind you raises. That is a very strong play. Never slowplay top pair, or anything when the board has two of a flush (except if you flopped a monster - FH 4's SF etc). Slowplaying mediocre hands is for the birds, but it can be a great strategy if you have a great hand. Flop the FH with two hearts on board? Hope that the flush and/or straight draw hits on 4th street and extract the maximum.

[Neeper]

I was gonna chime in, but Evman said everything I wanted to say.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Interesting to note Ag, that we haven't been playing limit correctly at all. Your version is somewhat of a blend of limit and no-limit.

http://www.pokertips.org/rules/limit.php

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher@Apr 28 2005, 10:42 PM
Interesting to note Ag, that we haven't been playing limit correctly at all. Your version is somewhat of a blend of limit and no-limit.

http://www.pokertips.org/rules/limit.php

Yup, you're correct.

We've been playing what's known as 'House Rules'. Common among small social gatherings of friends, where the important aspect is to have fun, rather than win money (and debate the 'rules' ad nauseum).

Evman pointed out something called 'spread limit', which is basically what we've been playing, sans the escalating scale.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Apr 28 2005, 10:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Apr 28 2005, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Flames Draft Watcher@Apr 28 2005, 10:42 PM
Interesting to note Ag, that we haven't been playing limit correctly at all. Your version is somewhat of a blend of limit and no-limit.

http://www.pokertips.org/rules/limit.php

Yup, you're correct.

We've been playing what's known as 'House Rules'. Common among small social gatherings of friends, where the important aspect is to have fun, rather than win money (and debate the 'rules' ad nauseum).

Evman pointed out something called 'spread limit', which is basically what we've been playing, sans the escalating scale. [/b][/quote]
Yeah. The only significant rule that your house rules do not use is that post-flop the small blind is supposed to start the betting.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher+Apr 28 2005, 10:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flames Draft Watcher @ Apr 28 2005, 10:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Yup, you're correct.

We've been playing what's known as 'House Rules'. Common among small social gatherings of friends, where the important aspect is to have fun, rather than win money (and debate the 'rules' ad nauseum).

Evman pointed out something called 'spread limit', which is basically what we've been playing, sans the escalating scale.

Yeah. The only significant rule that your house rules do not use is that post-flop the small blind is supposed to start the betting. [/b][/quote]
I guess that depends on your definition of 'significant'. I see it as a pretty minor point.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Apr 28 2005, 11:39 PM
I guess that depends on your definition of 'significant'. I see it as a pretty minor point.

Fair enough. I tend to think it can have a big impact on bidding because position is so important in poker. In your version big blind always has the most information, in the generally accepted rules that changes after the flop and the dealer (if he's still in) is the recipient of having the most information, meanwhile the big blind is now early on in the bidding process and thus has less information.

It certainly changes things. The extent is probably only measured by us after seeing the impact firsthand ourselves. But as I said, I tend to think it will make a significant difference in terms of strategy and how the bidding plays out.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher+Apr 28 2005, 11:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flames Draft Watcher @ Apr 28 2005, 11:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@Apr 28 2005, 11:39 PM
I guess that depends on your definition of 'significant'.# I see it as a pretty minor point.

Fair enough. I tend to think it can have a big impact on bidding because position is so important in poker. In your version big blind always has the most information, in the generally accepted rules that changes after the flop and the dealer (if he's still in) is the recipient of having the most information, meanwhile the big blind is now early on in the bidding process and thus has less information.

It certainly changes things. The extent is probably only measured by us after seeing the impact firsthand ourselves. But as I said, I tend to think it will make a significant difference in terms of strategy and how the bidding plays out. [/b][/quote]
I'm sure there are many variations of the game, with different strategies and tactics. There are examples in the above thread.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Apr 28 2005, 11:51 PM
I'm sure there are many variations of the game, with different strategies and tactics. There are examples in the above thread.

To some extent yes. Bidding often varies, that's for sure. But there do seem to be some base rules to poker, and to Hold 'Em in particular. This appears to be one of them as far as I can see although I could very well be wrong as I've only looked at a couple sources.

You've slowly adopted almost all of the generally accepted rules into your house rules, I don't see any reason to stop the evolution. I know I much prefer your house rules to the original rules we tried. The adoption of blinds, the proper amount of betting rounds, all good moves IMO and I would assume you guys agree since they've stuck.

As for limit vs no-limit, I've softened my stance from this morning. I'd once again to be willing to try your spread variation. But I do still think we should give no-limit a try at some point, just to see what it's like.

[evman150]

FDW and Co, I wrote an article for Poker Source Online on the importance of position in holdem. It hasn't been posted yet, but should be up in the coming weeks. I'll post it here for your edification.



The Importance of Position

The importance of position in Texas Hold'em, especially the no-limit version, cannot be overstated. In his book "Super System", Doyle Brunson says "If I had position all night, I could beat the game and never have to look at my hole cards." While this may be a bit of hyperbole on the part of Texas Dolly, it is not far from the truth. Position has many advantages, and cards that are trash in early position can sometimes be worth a hefty raise and aggressive betting from then on. When you put in the first raise on the button or near the button, what are the other players to do? They do not want to take on a strong player out of position. It's tantamount to giving away their chips. The theory of position is you have three ways to win while your opponent only has one. They can only win if they hit their hand. You can win with the raise before the flop, with the bet on the flop when it appears your opponent(s) has missed their hand, and when you actually hit your hand. I know I'll take 3:1 any day.

If you're just starting out playing poker you're probably wondering what exactly position is. Position refers to where you are in relation to the dealer (button). If you are in late (good) position, it means you are either on the button or one or two off it. Early (bad) position means you are either in one of the blinds or in the two seats just after the blinds. Middle (mediocre) position is when you are in between these two extremes, or in the fifth, sixth and seventh seats at a ten person table.

So why have good position? Shouldn't the cards be the only consideration? The answer is no. Of course the cards are important, but if you do not take position into account you are selling your bankroll short. Having position on a guy in a hand can save you money. If you are betting a legitimate hand, and a guy is calling all the way and then the third suited card comes on the river and he checks, you don't have to bet! If you get the inkling he is putting a play on you, just check it down and either way you've won. Either you win the hand or you win a moral victory by not getting sucked in by his ploy. If you were out of position you would have to throw another bet out after the last card so you didn't look weak and then if he hits the flush you get raised, or if he senses weakness he could feign making the flush and put you in an uncomfortable position anyway. So if you had position in this situation every time it came up you would probably save hundreds of bets over time. How do you make sure you have good position? Be more inclined to play more hands when you have good position and be more inclined to muck a borderline hand in early position.

Drawing on the button is a powerful spot to be in in no-limit Texas Hold'em. Unlike drawing out of position, which can often be a very transparent and money losing play, drawing in last position can be played very aggressively and consequently for less money. The concept of the free card is a play that can be made when you are last to act. Unless your opponents are holding something huge and will re-raise you on the flop or come out betting big again on fourth street, it is a good idea to raise in last position when you are drawing to get a "free" card. More times than not, these opponents will now check to you on fourth street and if you smell any weakness at all you can throw a large sized bet in. You now have two ways to win, by getting your opponents to fold on the turn and by actually hitting your hand on the last card. Alternatively, if you are holding a monster on the flop and have been taking free cards earlier in the session and think your opponents may be wising up, you could put the same play on with the opposite intention. Your opponents will see your raise and think you're just getting a free card, and when you check the turn their thoughts will be confirmed. Especially when playing against an aggressive player, checking the turn after free-carding with a monster can be a huge money making play. They will now bet into you on the river more times than not because they sense big time weakness (if the flush/straight doesn't hit of course), and now you can raise with your monster and get some real chips thrown into the pot.

Position is often one of the most overlooked aspects of poker by beginning and a lot of intermediate poker players. If you have never thought of this aspect of poker before, I hope you learned something and I am sure this information will help your bankroll. Remember to play tighter early and looser later. This will assure you of either being in position or having a great hand or both. You do not want to be lacking both of these things. That is where a lot of money is lost. Good luck at the tables!

(Property of pokersourceonline.com)