Is the War-on-Drugs about Race?

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

So it's part of black culture to loot?

I didn't say "black culture". There were white people in New Orleans as well. My argument is simply that some cultures are clearly less inclined to commit crime than others.

[MelBridgeman]

No the war on drugs is not about race

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Ark2

The way you first quoted this made it sound like (at least to me) white people are 4 times more likely to be in possession of drugs. I guess it all depends on how you frame an argument.

That was the conclusion from the Bureau of Justice Statistics April 2005.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Those numbers don't mean a heck of a lot standing alone. The questions I would ask are:

Of the black or white people sentenced for crack offences, how many had prior rap sheets or how many were busted for crack while committing another crimes? Are black people statistically more likely to be repeat offenders and therefore get sentenced to jail terms instead of alternate punishments? Are they more likely to get busted on other types of crimes where the judge might not go easy on them?

These are legitimate issues, and can't ever really be removed as variables. BUT;

Blacks are much more likely to be prosecuted for the same crimes and same circumstances.
Blacks are more likely to be repeat offenders than whites for the same reason that Alexander Ovechkin wasn't a repeat offender in the NHL - he kept getting off scott free.

Suffice it to say that, since I have read everything I've posted, I feel that the issues you brought up are not being overlooked.

[MickMcGeough]

Originally Posted by Gozer

I did not interpret the stat (for what it's worth), and I do confess to being familiar with the conclusion only. Though I must admit I am discouraged that you would discount the entire thread with such little effort - and make the baffling conclusion that I extrapolated gun ownership into phony crime statistics.

I didn't say you interpreted the stats. I said that it had been interpreted before being reported here. And it was interpreted with an agenda.

For example:

Originally Posted by The Actual Study

The likelihood of being stopped by police in 2002 did not differ significantly among white (8.7%), black (9.1%), and Hispanic (8.6%) drivers.

Police were more likely to search a vehicle driven by a black (7.1%) driver than by a white (2.9%) driver.

So, if you were summarizing that objectively, you'd say "Police aren't significantly more likely to stop a black driver than a white driver, but they're 2.4x more likely to search the vehicle."

But instead:

Originally Posted by Gozer

Fact: Black and Latino men are three times more likely than white men to be stopped by the police and have their cars searched.

See, that's not a fact. That's a rounded up number. By somebody who's bad at math.

Anyway - I also never claimed that the police/justice system isn't racist, though I see plenty of people were happy to imply that. On the contrary, I don't know how anyone could look at the actual numbers and claim otherwise. I'd just rather see the numbers quoted from the study.

I didn't like Sicko but that doesn't mean the States didn't have a problem with health care.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Ark2

I didn't say "black culture". There were white people in New Orleans as well. My argument is simply that some cultures are clearly less inclined to commit crime than others.

So I guess you meant that, culturally, Americans are more likely to loot or commit other crimes than the Japanese, Europeans, Canadians or just about anyone else.

I suppose that is one way to account for the descrepanies in prisoner populations highlighted in the original post.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by MickMcGeough

See, that's not a fact. That's a rounded up number. By somebody who's bad at math.

Your math is for searches of vehicles only. Searching the person or the vehicle (as I would define "search") is triple the rate.

Spoiler!

(data pulled from link, Table 7 and Table 9)
Whites that drive / white traffic stops x whites searched (%) = .306
(146779643 / 12842254 x 3.5)
Blacks that drive / black traffic stops x blacks searched (%) = .932
(20260621 / 1852086 x 10.2)
Hispanic...... =.977

[Cecil Terwilliger]

It's not about race but our racial biases play a part in who gets caught, who gets punished and how severely.

[Yeah_Baby]

The war on drugs is because the Colombian Cartels represent a Clear and Present Danger to the United States.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

It's not about race but our racial biases play a part in who gets caught, who gets punished and how severely.

Then how is it not about race?

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Then how is it not about race?

It's more about poverty than race IMO.
In the US, especially in Southern California - african americans and hispanics

Canada - Vancouver Downtown Eastside - whites and natives.

Russia - prob mostly whites/mongols.

You are more likely to get away with drugs and such in a nicer part of town than in the poor part of town. The people that live in those parts depend on where you are.

There is drugs and violence everywhere, some places more than others - full of people of all kinds of backgrounds.

That is not to say that racism and racial profiling don't exist because they do. But it's a much more complicated subject just to find one root cause. Sometimes perceptions thanks to media, moves, video games can skew our viewpoints.

OJ simpson - an african american man gets off cause he had money to burn - whether you think he is guilty or not is irrelevant. Would a poor person regardless of race be able to mount the defense the OJ did? Doubt it.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Then how is it not about race?

Because the intentions behind the war on drugs, at least IMO, aren't to put minorities in jail.

It is about race if it was secretly designed to imprison blacks, asians and hispanics.

Instead what should be neutral laws that treat everyone the same and only discriminate against drug users has failed because the people responsible for implementing the laws are flawed and allow their biases to effect the way in which the laws are enforced.

Semantics maybe but IMO an important point to distinguish.

[puckluck]

they got a war on drugs so the police can bother me.
And I ain't never did a crime I ain't have to do.
But now I'm back with the facts givin' 'em back to you.
Don't let 'em jack you up, back you up, crack you up and pimp smack you up.
You gotta learn to hold ya own.
They get jealous when they see ya with ya mobile phone.
But tell the cops they can't touch this.
I don't trust this, when they try to rush I bust this.
That's the sound of my tune. You say it ain't cool, but mama didn't raise no fool.
And as long as I stay black, I gotta stay strapped & I never get to lay back.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Sometimes perceptions thanks to media, moves, video games can skew our viewpoints.

Like people that think the OJ verdict has relevance?
Just ribbing you, wealth is obviously a factor.

I feel my argument suggests that our viewpoint is skewed toward "things seem fine" when they're not.
The argument has also been presented that blacks are systematically kept in poverty by the Prison-Industrial complex for the purpose of preventing racial balancing of wealth.

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

There is drugs and violence everywhere, some places more than others - full of people of all kinds of backgrounds.

This is the crux of the issue; everyone does the same amount of crime yet blacks are punished to a much greater extent.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Gozer

The argument has also been presented that blacks are systematically kept in poverty by the Prison-Industrial complex for the purpose of preventing racial balancing of wealth.

That seems like quite the leap in logic. We go from racial prejudices result in racial inequalities in crime statistics to this. I'm not seeing it.

[MickMcGeough]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Your math is for searches of vehicles only. Searching the person or the vehicle (as I would define "search") is triple the rate.

My math was based on a direct quote from you:

Originally Posted by Gozer

Fact: Black and Latino men are three times more likely than white men to be stopped by the police and have their cars searched.

That's why the study is interesting and significant, but the summarization and interpretation of the data contained therein is not.

Just let the study speak for itself.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Because the intentions behind the war on drugs, at least IMO, aren't to put minorities in jail.

That argument has been presented.

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Instead what should be neutral laws that treat everyone the same and only discriminate against drug users has failed because the people responsible for implementing the laws are flawed and allow their biases to effect the way in which the laws are enforced.

This goes well beyond white cops and a black kids.

War-on-Drug funding goes to precincts based on the volume of drug arrests, it behooves a police station to patrol a poor neighborhood with homeless people doing crack in the street rather than organized drug crime.

Why?

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Semantics maybe but IMO an important point to distinguish.

I'm Mr. Semantic.
You aren't picking on a technicality, you're missing the breadth of the issue.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Gozer

I feel my argument suggests that our viewpoint is skewed toward "things seem fine" when they're not.

never said things were fine.

Originally Posted by Gozer

The argument has also been presented that blacks are systematically kept in poverty by the Prison-Industrial complex for the purpose of preventing racial balancing of wealth.

which is dumb and stupid assertion. people are in proverty thanks to themselves or their genes.

Originally Posted by Gozer

This is the crux of the issue; everyone does the same amount of crime yet blacks are punished to a much greater extent.

So do you have any stats on what the punishment for blacks is when the judge is black? It's just a stat if it's actually accurate. But you can use stats to argue anything, I could say based on that statement, that maybe the reason for this is repeat offenders. Higher rates of proverty etc...other charges ect.. But to such there is a system wide consiparcy is something i will never buy into. There other legit and logical reasons besides race.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Ark2

That seems like quite the leap in logic. We go from racial prejudices result in racial inequalities in crime statistics to this. I'm not seeing it.

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, don't skip my initial arguments and then accuse it logical gaps. You'll have to read the thread.

If I could better present the argument in a single paragraph then I would.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Gozer

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, don't skip my initial arguments and then accuse it logical gaps. You'll have to read the thread.

If I could better present the argument in a single paragraph then I would.

I read the quoted texts that you posted and that's the leap in logic that I am referring to. Unless I missed something, it seems to go from black people are unfairly being imprisoned to the reason they are doing it is so we can have black slaves again. Does that seriously seem like a reasonable conclusion to you?