I doubt Harper is going to win, but if he does...

[Bertuzzied]

Any political party in Canada that has Rob Anders as one of the MP's does not deserve and will NEVER win.

[MarchHare]

If Ontario votes the Liberals back into office they will be doing wonders for the Separatist movement in Quebec.

In real simple English: Canada will be doomed . . . DOOMED . . . DOOMED!!!

And if Ontario votes for the Conservatives, the only party that's even more hated in Quebec than the Liberals are right now, the party that's never been able to elect even a single MP in that province in their CPC/Alliance/Reform iterations, then how will the voters of La Belle Province feel?

[moon]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Apr 23 2005, 10:27 AM

And if Ontario votes for the Conservatives, the only party that's even more hated in Quebec than the Liberals are right now, the party that's never been able to elect even a single MP in that province in their CPC/Alliance/Reform iterations, then how will the voters of La Belle Province feel?

hopefully they would feel p*ssed off enough to get the hell out of the country.

[Clarkey]

Originally posted by Bertuzzied@Apr 23 2005, 05:08 PM
Any political party in Canada that has Rob Anders as one of the MP's does not deserve and will NEVER win.

Ok we get it, you went to high school with him and don't like him.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Flame On@Apr 23 2005, 01:00 AM
A biggoted campaign snakeye? Well look the Cons are learning something....

Hard to respond to that comment without knowing the context. Care to fill us in?

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Apr 23 2005, 10:27 AM

And if Ontario votes for the Conservatives, the only party that's even more hated in Quebec than the Liberals are right now, the party that's never been able to elect even a single MP in that province in their CPC/Alliance/Reform iterations, then how will the voters of La Belle Province feel?

Strawman. Quebec - it's politicians at least - will be offended no matter who wins the federal election. Liberal or Conservative, doesnt matter. The NDP will never form a government - thankfully - and wont even come close to being the opposition while the Bloq is incapable of forming the government.

Let Quebec whine all it wants. The outcome of this election wont change that habit one bit.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Mike F
Out of curiosity, why is it best for Canada to call an election tomorrow?

Aside from the fact that we currently have a lame-duck government that is dependant on a party with minimal national support to remain in power and is starting to spend billions of dollars to try and buy it's way out of a scandal of it's own making?

The Libs + NDP are a seat or two short of a majority, but there are three independants as well. An NDP led coalition can retain power.

Two great policy reasons why I don't want a Conservative gov't....

But them I'm just a brainwashed idiot and actual policy reasons don't mean anything.

You said it, not me. I can respect people that support another party because they have similar beliefs. I dont respect people who merely support a party because they arent "the other guy."

If you lean towards the NDP, that is fair enough. Problem is, Canada as a whole does not. The fourth party in parliament should not be dictating how government is to be run.

And Harper's desire to call an election ASAP has nothing to do with his personal career desire to become PM right?

Nobody makes the personal sacrafices necessary to climb the political ladder that high without a strong desire for the power.

The difference is that Harper is willing to stick to his convictions while Martin has none.

Martin supported the Iraq war, then opposed it.
The Canadian government acted like it supported the missile defense shield, then opposed it.
Martin opposed redefining marriage, now supports it.

Honestly, I think Martin would support Quebec seperation if it would buy him one more vote.

[CaptainCrunch]

Funny thing, but I gained a lot of respect for Harper and lost all of the remaining respect for Layton on these actions.

While Harper is talking about a lame duck and corrupt government and pushing for an election to get the Liberals out of power before they have a chance to begin buying votes in Ontario again, while burying the Adscam scandal under false accusations of Conservative platforms that don't exist.

Layton and the NDP are fully prepared to support the criminal Liberals as long as they can get a seat at the ruling table, and get thier wacko views pushed into being. This is thier big opportunity, and they're willing to ignore the criminal actions of our government to seize it.

But the fact remain that right now if the BQ was running candidates in Calgary, I'd vote for them, I've gained a lot of respect for thier leadership in the last couple of years.

[Mike F]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Apr 23 2005, 11:02 AM
Aside from the fact that we currently have a lame-duck government that is dependant on a party with minimal national support to remain in power and is starting to spend billions of dollars to try and buy it's way out of a scandal of it's own making?

If the Conservatives get into power after the next election it will almost certainly be as a minority gov't. So who do you see them relying on to prop up their gov't?

The NDP? -- A party which the vast majority of the country doesn't support
The Bloc? -- A party which the vast majority of the country doesn't support
The Liberals? -- The same snakepit of uniform corruption and criminality that isn't worthy of having a place governing Canada

Seems like the future Canservative minority is going to have a hard time gaining legitimacy in your eyes.

You said it, not me. I can respect people that support another party because they have similar beliefs. I dont respect people who merely support a party because they arent "the other guy."

The problem is that the majority of those who would still vote Liberal are doing so not just because they're not the Conservatives but because they agree with the Liberal platform.

This whole stance that is so popular around here of simply writing off Liberal supporters as brainwashed, mindless, paranoid idiots is a complete red herring and a lazy way of trying to win a political debate. Conservative supporters are no more educated on the issues or principled than the supporters of any other party.

The difference is that Harper is willing to stick to his convictions while Martin has none.

Well it's easy to say a guy would never change policies if he's never been in power. However, didn't Harper run for the Alliance leadership stating that he wasn't for a merger, just as McKay did?

And isn't the CPC made up of a whole bunch of people who had such diverse principles that they were split in 2 parties, but decided to compromise many of those principles solely for the purpose of grabbing power?

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@Apr 23 2005, 11:56 AM

But the fact remain that right now if the BQ was running candidates in Calgary, I'd vote for them, I've gained a lot of respect for thier leadership in the last couple of years.

Same here.

They're in a fortunate position where they don't have to try and incorporate different views, but nonetheless they are easily the most transparent and consistent party going.

[Resolute 14]

This whole stance that is so popular around here of simply writing off Liberal supporters as brainwashed, mindless, paranoid idiots is a complete red herring and a lazy way of trying to win a political debate. Conservative supporters are no more educated on the issues or principled than the supporters of any other party.

It is easy to write off most Liberal supporters because their only arguments are "I hate Stockwell Day, therefore I hate all conservatives."

Truth be told, the number of liberal supporters who argue their support becuase they agree with the Liberal agenda is much lower than the number who do so becuase "at least they arent Harper/Day/Anders" or "I dont trust the CPC hidden agenda", etc.

Most Liberal supporters make it easy for us to dismiss them.

And yes, a conservative minority would be very hardpressed at staying in power long, though I doubt there would be much appetite for an election three years in a row. The problem I have with the current situation is that Layton is dictating how things are to be run rather than working with the government.

This isnt a case of one party having to work with another to pass any motions with confidence attached to them. This is a case of a party with 19 MPs ordering the government around.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Apr 23 2005, 04:21 PM

It is easy to write off most Liberal supporters because their only arguments are "I hate Stockwell Day, therefore I hate all conservatives."

While I am not a Liberal supporter, I do share the commonly held belief that Stockwell Day is a blithering idiot and he indeed taints the entire party.

However, most anti-CPC types have a slightly longer list of reasons to dislike the CPCs than the obvious "Stockwell Day is a fool" reason.

I'm a little bothered about how quickly they'll try to jump into the Missile Defense business, commit troops to American military adventures, appoint a grossly unqualified halfwit to a cabinet position and many other things. Never mind the social policies.

But I probably shouldn't worry too much about what they will get up to. I've got a sneaking suspicion that any government they do form will be unable to get anything accomplished and in a short time, maybe a year after the election, we'll have another one. The CPCs will get the boot and the Liberals will get another majority. You read it here first!

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Apr 23 2005, 10:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Apr 23 2005, 10:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Snakeeye@Apr 23 2005, 04:21 PM

It is easy to write off most Liberal supporters because their only arguments are "I hate Stockwell Day, therefore I hate all conservatives."

While I am not a Liberal supporter, I do share the commonly held belief that Stockwell Day is a blithering idiot and he indeed taints the entire party.

However, most anti-CPC types have a slightly longer list of reasons to dislike the CPCs than the obvious "Stockwell Day is a fool" reason.

I'm a little bothered about how quickly they'll try to jump into the Missile Defense business, commit troops to American military adventures, appoint a grossly unqualified halfwit to a cabinet position and many other things. Never mind the social policies.

But I probably shouldn't worry too much about what they will get up to. I've got a sneaking suspicion that any government they do form will be unable to get anything accomplished and in a short time, maybe a year after the election, we'll have another one. The CPCs will get the boot and the Liberals will get another majority. You read it here first! [/b][/quote]
You know Rouge, you and me are strangely similar on opposite ends of the political spectrum.

While I am not neccesarily a conservative supporter, I can't stand the arrogance and corruption of the upper echelon ot the Liberal party, and I personally can't stand Paul Martin as a leader.

He illustrated how terrible he is as a leader with his televised plea for his life this weak. Sadly as a senior member of the Liberal Party and a ranking member of the Liberals during the last government under Chretien he is either incompetant or a liar if he states that he didn't know about AdScam.

However most anti-liberals have more reasons then just the Liberal Government is full of crooks and thugs to hate the government.


Im a little bothered that the Government commited troops to afgahistan and couldn't properly equip and protect them, and even going as far as giving them woodland camo in a desert environment while making them drive around in poorly constructed equipment and faulty vehicles. The Lieberals must be thanking thier gods that more young men didn't come home in body bags.

I'm disturbed that the Government has lied to us about the HRDC scandal, has blown our money on a gun registry that dosen't work. Continually slanders the west and goes out of its way to aggrevate our biggest trading partner. We'll at the same time stealing our money, and really doing nothing more then catering to special interest groups.

I'm pretty sure that if the Lieberals ever get a majority government while Paul Martin and the Liberal senior cabal is in place, the first thing over the border will be my luggage, and I will publically dis-avow that I was born in this country. And thats pretty depressing considering how patriotic I am.

[Hakan]

And you'll go to that political-corruption-free country of your dreams?

When it comes down to it, we have it pretty good in regard to corruption. And they aren't nearly as incompetent as you believe them to be. Aggravating the U.S. is largely a media creation considering we've never traded more with them than this year and it looks like trade will be going up next year. The gun registry was politically popular and the reasons for budgetary lapses seem to be at the civil servant not political end.

Every time the Canadian Forces get sent to a desert country there's ALWAYS a news story a week later saying how they have their green camo. Grow up and realize what you're complaining about here. Would you rather they spent crap loads on all different types of camo in the case that they might need them someday or would you rather they bought the uniforms on demand for various situations. The forces weren't even combat deployed by the time they got their new unis. And they did put in a rush order for new Mercedes jeeps after their jeeps were found to be inadequate. You're blaming the liberals for doing what is politically popular and that is funding other programs at the expense of the military. Would you rather they just did stuff that wasn't popular? No, you'd probably hate them all the same.

[MarchHare]

It is easy to write off most Liberal supporters because their only arguments are "I hate Stockwell Day, therefore I hate all conservatives."

Truth be told, the number of liberal supporters who argue their support becuase they agree with the Liberal agenda is much lower than the number who do so becuase "at least they arent Harper/Day/Anders" or "I dont trust the CPC hidden agenda", etc.

Most Liberal supporters make it easy for us to dismiss them.

And I've noticed the same from most Conservative supporters. They've very quick to attack the Liberals, call them a bunch of crooks, and say we need a change in government, but they're not so willing to defend their own party's platform. In fact, I asked in another thread for reasons why I should vote for the Conservative Party that didn't mention the words "Liberal" or "Sponsorship Scandal", and the response I got was rather underwhelming.

So I'm going to ask again. Conservative Party supporters, why should I vote for your party? And please answer that question without attacking the Liberals. What about your own party's policies makes them worthy of my vote?

[Resolute 14]

Isnt that the same argument around gay marriage though?

We're told that there should not be a referrendum on gay marriage because it should not be up to the majority to decide the rights for the minority. The implied argument is that even if a majority of Canadians were to oppose redefining marriage, the government needs to step in and do the right thing, no matter how unpopular.

Here you are arguing that the government should not have properly equipped our military for all likely war scenarios, because it would have been an unpopular move.

Sometimes it shouldnt be about popularity. The government needs to do what is right for Canadians, regardless of what Canadians think about it. Typically, the Liberals do what is right for them, and then invent boogiemen to try and scare people into sticking with them.

Also, I believe that the jeeps that our military went to Afghanistan with were known to be inadequate from the beginning, but the government bought them anyway, probably because they were cheaper. It was only after the two soldiers died because of those inadequate jeeps that the Liberals suddenly identified the problem and moved to correct it.

[MarchHare]

Also, I believe that the jeeps that our military went to Afghanistan with were known to be inadequate from the beginning, but the government bought them anyway, probably because they were cheaper. It was only after the two soldiers died because of those inadequate jeeps that the Liberals suddenly identified the problem and moved to correct it.

I'm pretty sure the old jeeps were purchased during the Mulroney years.

[Hakan]

Gay marriage is actually not the same at all. It's been defined a constitutional right. No matter how politically unpopular it was (which it isn't at all) the government would be forced to either make legislation legalizing it or ignoring the problem (ala abortion) making it ostensibly legal but not politically endorsed. Why is the gay marriage issue so hard for some people to understand? Talk about morality at the behest of rational cognitive processes.

So to say that underfunding the military and legalizing gay marriage are the same is a false statement. I can provide you with polls after polls which indicate that the Canadian public supports our military but not at the cost of health care, education and the like. Therefore why is it wrong for the Liberals to do that if they are essentially acting in a democratic manner. For you, you say that the "government needs to do what is right for Canadians, regardless of what Canadians think about it." I see that statement as inherently problematic.

Don't get me wrong, I've never voted Liberal in my life, but some of the whining about them on this board is ludicrous.

Show me why I should vote for the Conservatives. I mean, if corruption and wasted money is your litmus for approval then the Mulroney debacle comes to mind easily.

[Resolute 14]

[quote]Originally posted by MarchHare@Apr 23 2005, 06:05 PM

So I'm going to ask again. Conservative Party supporters, why should I vote for your party? And please answer that question without attacking the Liberals. What about your own party's policies makes them worthy of my vote?

Convincing you to vote conservative would obviously first depend on your opinion of our social safety net. If you are big government, big spending supporter, then obviously things like national day care will appeal to you, and the conservatives arent the party for you.

For me, the most important reason to vote CPC is the promise of tax cuts. The feds collect $1500 per person more now than it did a decade ago despite all of these balanced budgets. At some point, some of this money needs to come back to the people and buisnesses.

Similaraly, the ending of corporate welfare. We should not be paying innefecient buisnesses to remain that way.

The Conservatives would put more funding into law enforcement. While I am trying to avoid dumping on the Liberals here, I have to say I would rather see one more cop on the street rather than one more bureaucrat maintaining the gun registry. The CPC would dump the registry and redirect that money towards enforcement.

Better relations with the US. Honestly, I do not understand why this is such a boogeyman. Simply put, we need them. They are our biggest trading partner, and while Canada's economy weathered the post 9-11 storm very well, we are still greatly affected by what happens to the American Econonmy. The border crises affecting Canada's beef and lumber industries are not going to get better so long as we continue to strain our relationships with the US.

Scrapping Kyoto. While I often call this a worthless treaty, it did have one benefit: It got people thinking harder about protecting the environment. That said, the treaty itself is about wealth redistribution, not the environment. We should not be forced to pay off other nations financially because we did not meet an artificial target by an artificial date. Similaraly, Ontario's automakers should not be getting breaks where the oil and gas industry does not.

And quite frankly, the fact that the auto makers can get credits and breaks alone shows how worthless Kyoto is. We can do better. Hell, the Alberta PC's have been much more proactive than the Feds have, and they oppose Kyoto more than anyone.

Finally, the hope of some kind of governmental reform. Certantly a CPC government wouldnt just completely reform parliament - nobody is going to do that anytime soon - but at the very least recognizing the senators Alberta elected would be a first step. Perhaps if Alberta's efforts were finally recognized, other provinces would join in and we can push for greater reforms.

[CaptainCrunch]

And you'll go to that political-corruption-free country of your dreams?

It would be likely, because unlike Canada, when curruption pokes it head out of the ground, for the most part that person actually either loses his job or goes to jail, and isn't awarded another term in office because people like "his platform"

When it comes down to it, we have it pretty good in regard to corruption. And they aren't nearly as incompetent as you believe them to be. Aggravating the U.S. is largely a media creation considering we've never traded more with them than this year and it looks like trade will be going up next year. The gun registry was politically popular and the reasons for budgetary lapses seem to be at the civil servant not political end.

Pretty good compared to who? All we've had in this government is scandal after scandal and most of them revolve around wasted government funds. Now if your saying that we have it better than Russia, or Saudi Arabia, I would probably agree with you, but other then that, I'm just not seeing it. Bully for us that we've traded more with the American's but thats due more to market expansion due to business and not due to our government. In key areas, where governments are involved little to nothing has been resolved.

The gun registry might have been popular in the so called seat of power in the East, but in the west it was exceedingly unpopular and un enforceable. Also the reason for the bdugedary lapse might have had an element of civil servant incompetance, but I question the fact then that the government can't control the beaurocarcy (sp?) which makes then incompentant, and the fact that the Liberals didn't put a stop to it the minute that it went over budget let alone many times over the its budget speaks about a government rife with stupidity incompetance and curruption (see the Hewlet packard computer invoicing scandal)

Every time the Canadian Forces get sent to a desert country there's ALWAYS a news story a week later saying how they have their green camo. Grow up and realize what you're complaining about here. Would you rather they spent crap loads on all different types of camo in the case that they might need them someday or would you rather they bought the uniforms on demand for various situations. The forces weren't even combat deployed by the time they got their new unis. And they did put in a rush order for new Mercedes jeeps after their jeeps were found to be inadequate. You're blaming the liberals for doing what is politically popular and that is funding other programs at the expense of the military. Would you rather they just did stuff that wasn't popular? No, you'd probably hate them all the same.

I am very grown up thank you very much, and I was deployed on two different occassions to desert spots. If our government wants to be an active part of peace keeping and want to serve the UN any where in the world then yes we should be prepared for every contigency. It dosen't take a rocket science type guy to realize if you want to be ready to serve throughout the world in hotspots then you should have at the very least the right type of uniforms and basic kit fill to be able to go. You don't buy shinguard jeeps that you could push a marble through the bottom of it, then deploy it to a land heavy in land mines. then after two good men are killed you say, opps sorry now we'll get the right equipment. Kinda like the Helicopter bonndoggle, and the Submarine screwup.

Then you look at the Dart deployment after the last tsunami and the fact that we didn't have the equipment or the resources to actually get them rapidly deployed.

And yes under certain situations I would love to have a government that did something unpopular for the right reason and be will to face the consequences, unfortunately the Liberals ain't it, as they're too busy filling thier pockets and trying to buy votes, while blackmailing canadians with programs that they're unwilling to follow through on.