Just land those planes where you want- I'm having a nap.

[4X4]

Ryan, aren't you a pilot? I'm surprised that you're so lenient about something like this. I'm surprised anyone is. I've done night shift, though my only responsibility was looking for oil, and not the much greater responsibility of landing planes.

I don't care about circadian rhythm. Many millions of humans overcome it every single night to do things like sell me booze at 1:59am, or a cab at 4am, or coffee at 5:30am. It's not heroic, it's just a fact of our 24 hour lives.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

Puckluck, tell us about your years of experience working jobs that challenge your circadian rhythm, and how you overcome them.

The many research teams would love your insight.

Well, I'm not Puckluck, but I've worked shift work most of my life. Without really thinking on it, I'd say I've probably worked for about 15 years in shift work in various forms. Generally in the warehousing industry, but occasionally in retail.

I found 12 hour shifts easiest to deal with. Generally the ones I dealt with were the 4 on, 4 off, 3 on, 3 off (flip to opposing 12 hours). So you'd spend 2 weeks on "days" (7am to 7pm) and then 2 weeks on "nights" (7pm to 7am). As mentioned elsewhere, the first couple of the swap were the 'hardest' while you re-adjust. You'd make more mistakes, visit Timmy's more often, and just generally be a bit more 'loggy' than usual. Then you'd pick it up. I found the key to helping here was to stay 'on shift', even if you weren't working. So when I was on nights, even on my days off, I kept the same sort of schedule as if I was working.

Yes, this sort of thing is pretty hard on your social life. Especially if you keep to the hours on your off days. It always seemed that no matter what days I had off, they weren't the 'right' ones. Trying to change a shift on this sort of schedule is a bloody nightmare. No one really to 'trade' with. Best you can hope for is one of the guys on the 'off' day being ok with subbing in for you.

I have also worked rotating 8 hour shifts. This job was a rarity in that it was M-F, and just the times flipped around. 2 weeks of days (7am - 3pm), 2 weeks of afternoons (3pm - 11pm) and 2 weeks of nights (11pm to 7am).

I found this was actually harder, and much more annoying. For the longest time (I worked this job for 3 years) I couldn't figure out why my afternoon shifts were so hard to get through. I would be sleepy and 'slow' all shift for at least the first week. Then it came to me. When on Days and Nights, I would sleep during afternoons. So I was sleeping a month on afternoons and then trying to force sleep at a different time. I 'solved' this by changing up my sleeping habits to "3 hours after I got home from work". That gave me enough time to get home, eat, shower and wind down a bit. Once I started keeping to that new sleeping schedule, that job got a lot better as my afternoon work picked up to the standard of my day and night work.

I found this was even more miserable on your social life, btw. For 2 weeks of every 6, you cease to exist to everyone, and the rest of the time you are either sleeping in prep for work, or too tired to do anything.

I usually took my sleeping quite seriously. I always kept in mind that I was driving a 1-4 ton forklift around (usually) that if I was sleepy could easily kill someone with. I had a few close calls that drove that home.

Working shift work in retail is a different monster. During some layoffs or slow times, you'd be surprised at how easy it is to find work in retail as a register jockey if you are willing to work nights.

Those only generally tend to be 8 hour shifts, but are pretty easy to get used to. The place I'd work had me work Sun-Thurs, 10pm to 6am. Since there was no rotating, after the first couple shifts I was able to get my circadian rhythm into that idea, and it wasn't a very big deal. The issue I often found was boredom really set in. In a small store, there's not much to do. You can bring books, but you burn through them pretty quick. You are left to wander the store and hope customers come in. Boredom here is really bad, as when you get bored, it's quite easy to fall asleep. So while I had no problem adjusting to sleeping when I wasn't on shift, I often resorted to caffeine (a poor choice, I realize) since I always FELT tired on shift.

The other two shifts were always busier (customer wise) than the night shift, so I took to begging my co-workers to leave work for me to do. Even if it was just busy-work, it helped keep me occupied and awake. Those shifts got 'easier' after that.

Anyhow, a long answer to what I am pretty sure was a sarcastic question in the first place.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Ryan, aren't you a pilot? I'm surprised that you're so lenient about something like this. I'm surprised anyone is. I've done night shift, though my only responsibility was looking for oil, and not the much greater responsibility of landing planes.

Perhaps its because us pilots know that a controller falling asleep doesn't equal planes falling from the skies or instantly start colliding with each other.

They did teach us to do more than wear aviators and tell girls at bars that we're pilots.

This is still a very serious incident, and like I said could be indicative of the strain the US ATC system is under. This is a 20 year veteran, and I believe a supervisor, as DCA regulated that for the night shift post 9/11.

[Ryan Coke]

4X4, I guess it's not that I am lenient about it, but I am acutely aware that fatigue related issues are often systemic in nature (as opposed to individual negligence). If Joe Controller had a couple of beers before coming to work, I have zero sympathy. Any form of willful negligence I get pretty angry about, but someone who fell asleep?

Maybe if he didn't bother trying to get sleep that day, maybe he intentionally tries to sleep when he shouldn't be while on shift, then he holds some significant responsibility. But what if he is a very good controller (he was a 20 year vet apparently) who didn't get a great days sleep, and was struggling that night when suddenly he accidentally drifted off during a slow time with no traffic? Is that reason to fire him?

There is an incident that had a pilot fall asleep in flight, and it was later determined that he had sleep apnea and wasn't aware how much it was impacting his sleep.

Maybe there was some negligence in this case that is yet to come out, but barring that we are talking about sleep and fatigue, not drugs and alcohol. Totally different to me.

[ken0042]

So for the pilots in this thread; is there actually a proceedure for landing at a major airport with no contact with the controller? Like how you guys would have a single engine landing proceedure?

I've been in the co-pilot seat of a much smaller plane (Twin Otter) and have listened to the difference between landing on some remote airstrip, and landing at a major airport. It just strikes me that landing with no controller would be very dangerous; especially when there had to be alternates close by.

[Dan02]

I don't remember the exact numbers, and I don't have the inclination to look it up, but I think there was only 2 planes scheduled to land at that airport between 11pm and 5am in the morning, no takeoffs either.

No #### I would have a hard time staying awake solo too. There are safety redundencies in place, no one was ever in danger, if the pilots didn't think it was safe, there were plenty of other options to land.

Does the controller deserve a reprimand? for sure. But given the situation, I wouldn't hold it over the guy. Hard to be perfect in a inperfect situation.

[Ryan Coke]

Ken, yes there are procedures for uncontrolled airports--some small airports are always uncontrolled, other bigger airports are only uncontrolled through night hours.

Some off the top of my head that are uncontrolled part time; Regina, Saskatoon, London ON, Lethbridge....there are lots more that I can't think off of hand. But we know what hours controllers are there, and when the controlling facility is closed then we go to uncontrolled aerodrome procedures. Really no big deal, since it is done at times that there is very little traffic.

Obviously this situation is a little different being unexpected and unexplained, but you make the judgment call on whether it is safe to land and if you are uncomfortable then you divert.

[4X4]

Considering that two pilots have voiced...understanding, I will concede. I guess I understand the idea of sticking up for those that do similar jobs, but what I'm still tripping over is the idea that it's ok to fall asleep during a night shift. I mean, this is the most basic part of having a job. If you can't hack the hours, you're fired. So, how does the air traffic controller get away with it?

[Bigtime]

Ryan, you've probably been flying more than me so I have a quick question for you. Do towers like Saskatoon, and Regina go to an advisory service once the tower is closed for the night (like an MF)?

I remember flying into Lethbridge on some night flights and although the tower was closed there was still someone on frequency acting as the advisory service. They'd give you any traffic reports from other planes that had checked in but were not offering radar services. So you would state your intentions and be given any other updates that they have received.

[Ryan Coke]

Yes, that is normally what happens. It turns to an MF where you talk to a FSS person for advisory info. Sometimes it is an on site FSS, and other times an RCO.

Of course it would be different going into a bigger airport that was supposed to be controlled but nobody is answering the phone, but as you said, the concept of flying into an uncontrolled airport is not particularly unusual.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

4X4, I guess it's not that I am lenient about it, but I am acutely aware that fatigue related issues are often systemic in nature (as opposed to individual negligence).

I've driven a cab for five years, and I can totally agree with this line of thinking.

When you rest a system on the idea that you have one guy, unsupervised, that otherwise lives a normal life but never ever sleeps poorly before his shift, you're setting yourself up for something like this. Eventually something will go wrong.

There is an incident that had a pilot fall asleep in flight, and it was later determined that he had sleep apnea and wasn't aware how much it was impacting his sleep.

Good point that too. Sleep apnea is a really nasty thing, as it's really easy to not realize you suffer from it.

[sa226]

My opinion on the matter has been covered by others already but I will add that that there is an easy answer and a more detailed answer to the question regarding the incident causing immediate "aluminum showers"

Easy answer: No big deal, large aircraft have TCAS and the pilots would be familiar with uncontrolled procedures and there is always alternate airports.

More Detailed: It all depends on traffic, variety of aircraft etc. Yes larger airports like Saskatoon, Regina etc go to Class E airspace after hours, but that is when the traffic is light. Uncontrolled procedures are a heck of a lot easier when there is only a few arrivals and departures. If it is busy with multiple aircraft with different SOP speeds coming from all directions, your standard uncontrolled procedures go out the window.

As for the shift work thing. The aviation industry in North America is archaic as far as duty and rest periods go. I think that goes for Pilots and ATC. Its easy to say "Suck it up" but selling Toquitos at 7-11 requires a bit less focus than directing traffic in the air. No offense to anyone who may do that. There may be underlying and systematic issues that need to be solved.

A few of the more recent aviation accidents in the US have shed some light on the ridiculous duty limitations that pilots operate by.

For me, it is legal to work a 15 hour day, then get 8 hours of rest and then work another 15 hours (There are a bunch of restrictions weekly, monthly etc on that)....Not bad when the hours are in your normal circadian rythm, but when you are called at 3 AM for a 15 hour duty day after having 3 days off on a normal rythm, it is ruthless.

I think there is far more to it than what the media will have you believe.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Back in high school, I fell asleep counting traffic at the south entrance at COP, at the top of the hill. I subsequently got fired. Seemed pretty fair at the time...but maybe I should file a complaint?

[Bigtime]

Good article about this from "Ask the Pilot":

http://www.salon.com/technology/ask_...c_control_awol