Fleury ashamed to be Canadian...

[Reaper]

While Fleury is doing a good job in the role of drama queen I have to agree that there is still a lot of racism and discrimination against the aboriginal peoples of Canada (full blooded natives and Metis included).

[Hakan]

The reserve cash handouts is essentially racist. It basically makes sure Indians STAY on the reserve.

You are nurturing these people to be completely dependent on unsustainable resources. How will they ever be equal when they are forced to keep sucking at the government's teat?

How do you propose to make them equal? I do believe that there needs to be a whole lot more of nation and agency building within the community and that the hand outs do need to be phased out. That said, it's not like you stop the handouts and instantly they become equal and better off.

[peter12]

Originally posted by Hakan@Apr 21 2005, 09:57 AM

How do you propose to make them equal? I do believe that there needs to be a whole lot more of nation and agency building within the community and that the hand outs do need to be phased out. That said, it's not like you stop the handouts and instantly they become equal and better off.

Of course you can't just stop the handouts... Self-governing reserves for one. Make the reserves independent, cut off the bi-annual youth payments entirely, make them pay taxes and give tax breaks if they attend school.

Don't get me wrong, none of this is the aboriginals fault at all. They have been systematically shat on by the "white guy" for 400+ years. Undoing the damage done will be even more shinguardty.

But they have to be phased out, otherwise an "Indian" will always be an "Indian.

[JiriHrdina]

I think self government is something to strongly consider our first nations. It is something that the assembly is in fact pushing for:

http://www.cnw.ca/fr/releases/archive/Marc...5/31/c0926.html

Obviously lots of huge questions would needed to be answered as part of a aboriginal self government plan. However the bottom line is that the current system isn't working. Racism or not - you can't deny that aboriginal populations have much higher incidences of suicide, serious disease, alcoholism (and other addictions), and so on. The system needs to change.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Flashpoint@Apr 21 2005, 03:47 PM

The Canadian government never advocated genocide against any of the groups you mentioned.

They did against Natives. It was called the "White Paper".


Edit: By "genocide" I mean - "The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group." The White paper called for the elimination of distinctions between natives and non natives. It stated that by the year 2000 (it was written in 1969) all "Indians" would be assimilated into white society, or dead.

So is this generation of Canadians responsible for something done a hundred years (or longer) ago? Natives have to stop playing the victim. Just like blacks do in America (according to their own leaders). These groups have to stop looking for a handout and start doing something for themselves. They are they ones that have to stop asking for a loaf and demanding the education to fish. Canadian culture is one of the victim, and looking to what society can do for me, rather than taking responsibility for oneself and seeing what one can do for society. This has to stop, or the hatred will only get worse and be more and more like it is in the United States.

[SoulOfTheFlame]

Originally posted by Rory Tate+Apr 21 2005, 07:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rory Tate @ Apr 21 2005, 07:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SoulOfTheFlame@Apr 21 2005, 07:20 AM
He's totally right. I've been all over Canada, and it seems the further West I go the more racism I encounter.

Now that could be taken as stereotyping in and of itself. I mean, just because those of us in the West are inbred and uneducated...er, wait a minute. Seriously though, these kinds of attitudes do creep in with statements like this, so I think it's important to always keep in mind that group trends (which do exist) cannot apply to individuals. I'm not talking morally or socially unacceptable here (i.e. politically correct)...I'm saying mathematically it is wrong. The logic simply does not hold up under scientific scrutiny. It is only our lazy minds, fearful of strangers, that need to find patterns that tell us who someone is based on their race, colour, etc., without treating them as a real person. [/b][/quote]
I'm not saying every westerner is racist by any means, I'm saying only that I have encountered more racism in the west in my personal life. I wasn't stereotyping.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by fotze@Apr 21 2005, 04:06 PM
I like most people was a fataing idiot at that age...

No much has changed since then!

Just kidding fotze. You make a great point about the way the money is spent. Frankly I think it does not give the natives a sense of what a dollar means and how you can make money work for you. I can't stress the need for better education enough. I'm not saying going to university or anything, but giving these people 21st century life skills is extremely important, something I think that their own government has fallen down in ensuring.

[SoulOfTheFlame]

Originally posted by Bingo+Apr 21 2005, 08:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bingo @ Apr 21 2005, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SoulOfTheFlame@Apr 21 2005, 07:20 AM
He's totally right. I've been all over Canada, and it seems the further West I go the more racism I encounter.

Yikes ... that's loaded in itself.

Way to paint an entire region of Canada.

Morons are all over the place man. [/b][/quote]
Agreed.

Read what I said though, I said personally the further west I go, the more racism I have encountered. I'm talking about my personal experiences, nothing more.

[Hakan]

So is this generation of Canadians responsible for something done a hundred years (or longer) ago? Natives have to stop playing the victim. Just like blacks do in America (according to their own leaders). These groups have to stop looking for a handout and start doing something for themselves. They are they ones that have to stop asking for a loaf and demanding the education to fish. Canadian culture is one of the victim, and looking to what society can do for me, rather than taking responsibility for oneself and seeing what one can do for society. This has to stop, or the hatred will only get worse and be more and more like it is in the United States.

I do think that disenfranchised people need to do something to achieve change and have to want to make change. But, I see this whole comment spoken without any reflection on what it must be like to live in a world as a First Nations person. From your perspective this makes perfect sense. But when you are raised as a steward of Canada while being systematically disenfranchised you attitude would not really come to play in a lot of these people. The First Nations have had years of us 'regular' Canadians playing the parent, deciding what's best for them and now criticizing them. It seems that we have not taken the moment to realize what their lifeworlds might resenmble and how ludicrous a suggestion it is to say that First Nations should just 'stop playing the victim.' Newsflash: they are the victim, and there's only so much you can do from this position.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Hakan@Apr 21 2005, 04:23 PM
Newsflash: they are the victim, and there's only so much you can do from this position.

Bullshinguard. You're a victim only if you want to play a victim. If you're willing to stand up for yourself and take some RESPONSIBILITY then you are not a victim. The majority of natives take a passive role in their own lives and this is why they are in the position they are in. If they would take an active role and assume some responsibility they would be much better off and likely a lot more successful. This garbage of pointing fingers and saying how hard doe by we are is a freakin' joke. Find some backbone. The native culture is so rich in the warrior tradition yet they don't display the character to fight for what is they want and what they see as right. The natives have CHOSEN to play the role they presently do. They can CHOSE to change that any time they wish.

[Pileon]

Originally posted by Hakan@Apr 21 2005, 09:23 AM
Newsflash: they are the victim, and there's only so much you can do from this position.

They've been the victims for as long as I've been alive. It seems to be something that is handed down from one generation to the next. It's unfortunate because I went through school with several natives that were very good athletes/students. For reasons that I never understood, they never participated in the school and always went back to the reserve. Shame really.

As far as stopping the cycle, I think self government would be a good answer - but it has to be government within the scheme of other jurisdictions. The current reserve setup keeps other peopel out as much as it keeps natives in. Self government with taxing authority, right to specific lands and issuing of business licenses - much like counties and MD's do right now - would be a good start.

Settling land claims will be the bellweather in this situation. From the land will come the wealth associated with natural resources and the ability to develop it. Hand in hand with this will come the requirement for educating those people that will do the governing to maximize their use of the resource. The natives in turn will have to abandon their view of the reserve as a "traditional way of life" and jump forward into the modern world.

Can you imagine the amount of money the Tsu Tina reserve could make just by developing a single golf course or developing a small neighbourhood in some of the prime real estate they have available? Of course their casino will be a huge money maker for the future.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by fotze@Apr 21 2005, 04:25 PM

I guess things are changing SLOWLY but who knows where this extra pile of dough is going to go or will it be equitably distributed.

But that would be communism!!

I agree with Fleury, but the whole "ashamed to be Canadian" thing is a little overboard.

I used to live in Brandon MB (not too far from where Fleury grew up) and experienced the other end before - racism against white people from natives. One time in particular I had 3 native guys pushing me around trying to get me to fight for no reason. I was playing pool with a friend of mine and they were watching. One of them said; "nice shot", and I said; "watch this next one", just as a friendly joke. The guy asked me; "Are you serious or are you just being a smart ass?".... well, I knew right there that I was in trouble no matter what I said.

After being cornered and punched a couple of times, a friend of mine in the bar who was an Indian himself, came and broke it up. Apparently, after I left (kicked out!), those 3 guys told my friend that they wouldn't have bothered me if they knew I was friends with an Indian.

As a white person, I don't get a lot of the institutionalized racism against me - but I did experience one of the worst kinds there is. Having my life threatened because of the colour of my skin. Was I upset about it? Sure. But I wasn't "ashamed to be Canadian" - of course not!

BTW, similar things have happened before.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by SoulOfTheFlame+Apr 21 2005, 04:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SoulOfTheFlame @ Apr 21 2005, 04:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Yikes ... that's loaded in itself.

Way to paint an entire region of Canada.

Morons are all over the place man.

Agreed.

Read what I said though, I said personally the further west I go, the more racism I have encountered. I'm talking about my personal experiences, nothing more. [/b][/quote]
I'd also point out that while brushing a whole group of people (Western Canadians) as holding a more or less 'racist' ideal than another region could be dangerous, but isn't necessarily wrong.

While no one should make assumptions about groups of people, I think you've entered a different ballpark once you've got hefty personal experience.

While I don't think one group of people is better or worse than another, I think its entirely fair to believe that one group is more intolerant than another.

To suggest that all groups of people (Western, Eastern, Central, Northern) Canadians are more or less racist/prejudiced than other groups might be morally/ethically wrong, but practically correct.

I do indeed believe that there are more people per capita in Western Canada that hold what I would call 'bias' or 'prejudice' against other groups of people than I've experienced in Eastern/Central Canada. I assume there are perfectly rational explanations for this, largely based around geography, economy, politics, etc.

I don't think its _wrong_ to state that one group is more or less prejudiced than another, as long as that's a 'known' fact rather than a biased characterization. To say that NO group is more or less racist than another is probably wrong. German Nazis were _much_ more racist than other groups, and I think this example alone points out the fact that different 'groups' of people can hold different prejudices.

Though, quantifying these by 'group' is probably next to impossible, regardless of the 'truth' of the matter or not.

[Natt]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Apr 21 2005, 04:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Apr 21 2005, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Hakan@Apr 21 2005, 04:23 PM
Newsflash: they are the victim, and there's only so much you can do from this position.

Bullshinguard. You're a victim only if you want to play a victim. If you're willing to stand up for yourself and take some RESPONSIBILITY then you are not a victim. The majority of natives take a passive role in their own lives and this is why they are in the position they are in. If they would take an active role and assume some responsibility they would be much better off and likely a lot more successful. This garbage of pointing fingers and saying how hard doe by we are is a freakin' joke. Find some backbone. The native culture is so rich in the warrior tradition yet they don't display the character to fight for what is they want and what they see as right. The natives have CHOSEN to play the role they presently do. They can CHOSE to change that any time they wish. [/b][/quote]
Hmm...be careful not to make generalizations like that. While I see where you're coming from (playing the race card is not cool...) not every victim of racism plays the victim. And be carefully for stereotyping Natives as being that way. I go to University with some Natives with a lot of drive and motivation for self amelioration. But that doesn't stop the remarks because people still make generalizations and quick judgements.

[flames_1987]

Racism is a disgusting thing and although I may not agree how Theo worded it, I have to agree with him. The united states has always been filled with rcaism in and around it whether it be skin color, or as simple as having a different opinion. It's always something that's made me happy to be Canadian knowing it's not like that here, but latley man I gotta agree with Theo. With all the diffrent ways for people to express themselves and what not, there has become a certain sense of eneducated sterotypical people.
For instance I'm 18 and still of the new generation I geuss you could call it, and it's amazing how many things have been picked up by people my age and in there 20's, when it comes to natives along with other minoritys. For example, the drunk Indian sterotype, people hear it, people see it, on the net on the tv, and bamn there only views on the matter become those sterotypical ones. There not perhaps serious ones, like damn all those drunk natives, but there still thoughts and lots of the time there only thoughts. I can't say I've never laughed at something like that before, but in a society where kids are becoming more and more sheltred in my mind, it's basically there only knolledge or thoughts. The sterotypical drunk indian, and even with the emergence of rap music, the dope smoking basketball playing black guy. Just my thoughts from a student still in high school.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

It's pretty easy for someone in Calgary for example to make that generalization when the only Indians they see are drunk Indians hanging around the C-Train downtown, Olympic Plaza, etc. Sad but easily explained.

[flames_1987]

I would agree with you FDW and thats why I still think there is a huge sense of kids my age and up now being sheltred. That may just be the north american lifestyle of ho hum ho hum, nobodys getting hurt, I don't see it that often so meh. The generlizations that I think we've all been one time in our life's guilty of making. Yet, nobody of age or of power taking iniative to try and lower the amount of racism or at least educate people into the whole thing.

[Calgary Flames]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher@Apr 21 2005, 11:53 AM
It's pretty easy for someone in Calgary for example to make that generalization when the only Indians they see are drunk Indians hanging around the C-Train downtown, Olympic Plaza, etc. Sad but easily explained.

OR when I worked at Superstore there was always one day a month when a ton of natives would come in to buy their kids stereos, video games by the DOZEN, TV's ect... Even had to haul it out to their fancy brand new trucks.

I've had native friends and they agree with me, the government handouts shouldn't be neccessary anymore because for the most part their people abuse it. Why not spend that money on better clothes for your children? or for school?

I try not to hold it against them because we're living on their land but good god... I NEVER give money to natives on the street for that reason... am I racist?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Calgary Flames@Apr 21 2005, 12:04 PM

I try not to hold it against them because we're living on their land but good god... I NEVER give money to natives on the street for that reason... am I racist?

That depends. Do you give money to white people on the street? If so, do you think it's going to go towards nicer clothes for their children?

[Calgary Flames]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Apr 21 2005, 12:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Apr 21 2005, 12:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Calgary Flames@Apr 21 2005, 12:04 PM

I try not to hold it against them because we're living on their land but good god... I NEVER give money to natives on the street for that reason... am I racist?

That depends. Do you give money to white people on the street? If so, do you think it's going to go towards nicer clothes for their children? [/b][/quote]
A small ammount of change i'd give to an elderly homeless white man is a little different that a native who gets thousands of dollars from the government when they turn 18 and have the option of a free education wouldn't you say?