Liberals Cancel Opposition Day

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by calculoso+Apr 19 2005, 09:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (calculoso @ Apr 19 2005, 09:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Flame On@Apr 19 2005, 05:36 PM
What's more sickening to me is the time the official opposition (an important role in a healthy democracy) has had to get themselves together, yet they're still total losers whom I suspect will still have problems even getting a minority government in power. It was only a couple a months ago that they put to rest some areas surrounding abortion. They may not have been wasting money but they have been wasting time. Wasting it in a fight to find out whether they're more value based than just fiscally responsible traditional Cons.
The problem is they can't win either, becuase if they even mention gay marriage they're perceived (rightly) as wasting time on a relatively unimportant area, and show their social engineering agenda, but if they don't their infighting probably continues .
I can't understand why more aren't angry or baffled by them.

The start of yet another thread about the Liberals degenerating into one about the Conservatives?


Liberals Bad?
Conservatives... blah blah blah
Liberals Bad v2
Conservatives... same blah blah blah
Liberals Bad v3
Conservatives... same blah blah blah.

It's getting old. [/b][/quote]
HERE HERE! Haha, just like Martin in the election debates:

"Mr. Martin, how would you improve the military?"
"Well, here's what the Conservatives would do to wreck the country..."

Or the other day in the House, any question towards the Liberals relating to the Gomery inquiry was responded with:

"The Conservatives under Harper plan do wreck healthcare in the following manner..."

How badly does the devil you know have to get before you start looking at the devil you don't know? Ooooo, if I vote for a party other than the Liberals (namely the Conservatives), things might change! Oh but wait, the scary Conservatives are corrupt, they have a hidden agenda, they waste money, etc, etc, etc. You know, all the things the Liberals are now being proven to be and do. But heresay, rumours, mudslinging, whatever... appears to rank higher than actual proof in this case. Funny how it's coming out that the party is indeed corrupt and that the party indeed lies and yet when they say anything about the Conservatives it's taken as cold, hard fact by all the morons that support them...

[Flame On]

Originally posted by calculoso+Apr 19 2005, 08:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (calculoso @ Apr 19 2005, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Flame On@Apr 19 2005, 05:36 PM
What's more sickening to me is the time the official opposition (an important role in a healthy democracy) has had to get themselves together, yet they're still total losers whom I suspect will still have problems even getting a minority government in power. It was only a couple a months ago that they put to rest some areas surrounding abortion. They may not have been wasting money but they have been wasting time. Wasting it in a fight to find out whether they're more value based than just fiscally responsible traditional Cons.
The problem is they can't win either, becuase if they even mention gay marriage they're perceived (rightly) as wasting time on a relatively unimportant area, and show their social engineering agenda, but if they don't their infighting probably continues .
I can't understand why more aren't angry or baffled by them.

The start of yet another thread about the Liberals degenerating into one about the Conservatives?


Liberals Bad?
Conservatives... blah blah blah
Liberals Bad v2
Conservatives... same blah blah blah
Liberals Bad v3
Conservatives... same blah blah blah.

It's getting old. [/b][/quote]
Awww poor baby. Cry me a river.
What an interesting topic to debate, your entire thread would consist of:
Liberals bad.
Thrilling
Trust me, I see plenty of Liberal bashing around here.
Why don't you tell me what you like about your Conservatives then? Point to specifics that you like more, in order to build your own case as to why "Liberals Bad". I wonder if you can do it with out pointing to social issues either.

oh and 50 percent of Canadians support banning abortion BS!!!

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by Flame On@Apr 19 2005, 10:23 PM
Point to specifics that you like more, in order to build your own case as to why "Liberals Bad". I wonder if you can do it with out pointing to social issues either.

Are you kidding me? Wait, wait, wait, let me get this straight. Lets make sure there's been no communication breakdown here and we're all on the same page:

It's now up to calculoso (and every non-Liberal supporter I would imagine) to prove why the Liberals are bad and perhaps not worth voting for in the next election? There's nothing else going on nowadays that, you know, might also act as proof of this? Nothing in the papers or on TV that would suggest the Liberals are indeed 'Bad,' as you put it?

Interesting.....

[calculoso]

Originally posted by Flame On+Apr 19 2005, 09:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame On @ Apr 19 2005, 09:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Awww poor baby. Cry me a river.
What an interesting topic to debate, your entire thread would consist of:
Liberals bad.
Thrilling
Trust me, I see plenty of Liberal bashing around here.
Why don't you tell me what you like about your Conservatives then? Point to specifics that you like more, in order to build your own case as to why "Liberals Bad". I wonder if you can do it with out pointing to social issues either. [/b]

In case you didn't understand what I was getting at, I was summarizing. Any time something new is brought up about the Liberals, the same old "what if" is brought up.

The Liberals are bad. If you disagree, then say it. Back up why the Liberals aren't bad. Try and do it without using social issues, as you've challenged me to do. I have a strong hunch you can't.

<!--QuoteBegin-Flame On@Apr 19 2005, 05:36 PM
The problem is they can't win either, becuase if they even mention gay marriage they're perceived (rightly) as wasting time on a relatively unimportant area[/quote]

Even as you said above, gay marriage is a relatively unimportant area - and yet it's what is brought up most often when trying to discredit the Conservatives and turn the attention away from the Liberals.

Contrary to what you obviously expect, I don't blindly follow the Conservatives. I don't agree with some of their "policies" (meaning those that the Liberals put out there as fact when they may or may not be the case). I just think that the corruption, waste, arrogance, and avoidance/indecision by the Liberals is much, much worse. I can put up with these supposed social ideas because I don't think that they would or could put anything in place without a huge fight and, as is their stated policy, a referendum.

Unlike most who appear to back the Liberals, who appear to expect the worst out of people, I choose to hope for the best. I want change. If it doesn't happen, then fine. Kick them out too. A hope for change is much better than a virtual guarantee that it will continue.

Liberal backers don't want to talk about the Liberals. They know that there are problems. They know that they can't agree with everything they do (and if they do, they're fools). They just don't want to admit it.

[calculoso]

Even NDP Leader Jack Layton is questioning this move:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/04...1002895-cp.html

NDP Leader Jack Layton said Prime Minister Paul Martin is making a mockery of his campaign commitment last year to enhance parliamentary democracy.

"How can shutting down the right of this House to hold the government to account be consistent with what he said he would do?" Layton said in the Commons.

[Flame On]

Originally posted by FlamesAllTheWay+Apr 19 2005, 09:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAllTheWay @ Apr 19 2005, 09:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

The start of yet another thread about the Liberals degenerating into one about the Conservatives?


Liberals Bad?
Conservatives... blah blah blah
Liberals Bad v2
Conservatives... same blah blah blah
Liberals Bad v3
Conservatives... same blah blah blah.

It's getting old.

HERE HERE! Haha, just like Martin in the election debates:

"Mr. Martin, how would you improve the military?"
"Well, here's what the Conservatives would do to wreck the country..."

Or the other day in the House, any question towards the Liberals relating to the Gomery inquiry was responded with:

"The Conservatives under Harper plan do wreck healthcare in the following manner..."

How badly does the devil you know have to get before you start looking at the devil you don't know? Ooooo, if I vote for a party other than the Liberals (namely the Conservatives), things might change! Oh but wait, the scary Conservatives are corrupt, they have a hidden agenda, they waste money, etc, etc, etc. You know, all the things the Liberals are now being proven to be and do. But heresay, rumours, mudslinging, whatever... appears to rank higher than actual proof in this case. Funny how it's coming out that the party is indeed corrupt and that the party indeed lies and yet when they say anything about the Conservatives it's taken as cold, hard fact by all the morons that support them... [/b][/quote]
Did you just call me a moron?
I didn't vote for the liberals in the either the federal or provincial elections by the way.
And you've kind of made my point. You can't tell me that the conservatives marketing machine for want of a better term is doing a good job. Other wise the perception that there's hidden agendas etc (rightly or wrongly) wouldn't be an issue. I'm saying that I think it's dissapointing the cons don't have their act together more, to get a better race or even a definitive victory. I'm not saying I'd vote for them then or ever will but a healthy opposition is important. The fact that you're asking me is the devil I know better then the one I don't is the let down.

[Sammie]

It's not surprising that this Liberal corruption occurred in Quebec where political corruption has become a fact of life since the days of Premier Maurice Duplessis and the Quiet Revolution. The Olympic Stadium is a great symbol of the extreme costs of the province's political corruption.

With all this corruption, Quebec voters have learn how to send very clear messages that voters in the rest of Canada--and particularly in Ontario--should note and put into practice.

Even though the majority of Quebec voters have let it be known they prefer to remain in Canada they do not hesitate to vote in a separatist government for a term and hope the federalist politicians will clean up their act by the time of the next election.

It's time to kick these Liberal crooks out of office and bring some fresh blood and ideas into government with a different vision for the country. It's time to give somebody else a chance. Even the NDP couldn't be all that much worse than this Liberal bunch of mafia wannabes.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by Flame On+Apr 19 2005, 11:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame On @ Apr 19 2005, 11:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Did you just call me a moron?
[/b]

No. But in this particular case, i've reached the point where I believe anyone who supports the Liberals now is indeed a moron. Of note: it comes down to a debate for me whether or not to vote Conservative or Green in elections. I'm not a staunch supporter of the CPC by any means. Also of note: If all parties were on equal footing in my mind (like in ideal terms. No scandals or incompetences or anything of that nature) I would probably vote Liberal. Lastly, of note: If any other party was in the position the Liberals are now with regards to the Gomery inquiry, I would not support them either.

Originally posted by Flame On+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame On)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I didn't vote for the liberals in the either the federal or provincial elections by the way.
[/b]

Good to know. Though, i'm mostly concerned with the Federal Liberals.

<!--QuoteBegin-Flame On@

And you've kind of made my point. You can't tell me that the conservatives marketing machine for want of a better term is doing a good job. Other wise the perception that there's hidden agendas etc (rightly or wrongly) wouldn't be an issue.
[/quote]
Marketing machine could be doing better, I agree. There are definitely some loudmouth boneheads in the CPC that certainly don't help the party's image. Certain social issues, which should be minor, are being made to big a deal of. However, with the CPC it's reached the point where even if they clarify their position on something such as healthcare, the reaction is almost:

"No. They're lieing. Hidden agenda. The Liberals said so."

This is what bugs me. Or even the two examples I posted earlier where Martin's response to questions are not what the Liberals will do, but what the 'radical scary CPC party' will do instead. And people soak it right up without a second thought. Even now with all these scandals surfacing people discard proof in favour of rumours and conjecture in order to justify voting Liberal. I'll take a poor marketing machine over corrupt government anyday.

<!--QuoteBegin-Flame On

The fact that you're asking me is the devil I know better then the one I don't is the let down
[/quote]
Really though. A quick trip here: http://www.conservative.ca/documents/20050...DECLARATION.pdf and suddenly the devil you don't know, is known. It is not fair to believe all that 'hidden agenda' garbage as the only proof we have of this is what comes out of Martin's yap anytime he's asked a question.

Only one party has been in a position in the last little while for the public to see how they govern and that is the Liberal Party. After seeing how they've done in the past decade+, I think it is definitely time for a change. I'm not pro-CPC, i'm anti-Liberal as I see any vote cast for them as a vote for incompetence, waste and worst of all, corruption. I say vote for any other party except Liberal, or at worst, don't vote at all...

[flamingchina]

Re: Abortion

Two differing opinions on a recent poll on abortion(2002, but the newest one I could find easily.

The gist seems to be:
30% like our laws the way they are.
37% want no abortion
the rest are between
for
against

And besides, there are more parties than the Con's and the NDp.

Vote Green!!

[Flame On]

Originally posted by flamingchina@Apr 19 2005, 11:53 PM
Re: Abortion

Two differing opinions on a recent poll on abortion(2002, but the newest one I could find easily.

The gist seems to be:
30% like our laws the way they are.
37% want no abortion
the rest are between
for
against

And besides, there are more parties than the Con's and the NDp.

Vote Green!!

I have.

[transplant99]

I agree with Calc.

Why is it that anytime something is brought up about the LIBERAL gov't. it turns into a "well the Conservatives would do blah blah blah"?

What in the hell does one have to do with the other? Why not just comment/debate on the actual point of the post?

[Resolute 14]

One just cannot overlook the hypocritical irony of a Liberal party member or voter justifying their party based on a supposed hidden agenda of the CPC.

The government will fall before summer precicely because of a Liberal hidden agenda.

[MarchHare]

Are you kidding me? Wait, wait, wait, let me get this straight. Lets make sure there's been no communication breakdown here and we're all on the same page:

It's now up to calculoso (and every non-Liberal supporter I would imagine) to prove why the Liberals are bad and perhaps not worth voting for in the next election? There's nothing else going on nowadays that, you know, might also act as proof of this? Nothing in the papers or on TV that would suggest the Liberals are indeed 'Bad,' as you put it?

That's not at all what he was asking.

He wants someone to say why the Conservatives are good and worth voting for, and "they're not the Liberals" is not an acceptable reason. For as much as those on the right accuse Liberal supporters of turning the debate around against the Conservatives, you do it just as much -- rather than prop up your own party of choice, all I ever hear is "The Liberals are stealing money from Canadians and we have to get them out of power."

So here's your chance to tell everyone why we should put the CPC in power. What about their policies do you like? How do you think they would make Canada a better place?

And I don't want to hear the words "Liberal" or "Sponsorship Scandal" once in your reasoning.

[Bingo]

Originally posted by transplant99@Apr 20 2005, 05:51 AM
I agree with Calc.

Why is it that anytime something is brought up about the LIBERAL gov't. it turns into a "well the Conservatives would do blah blah blah"?

What in the hell does one have to do with the other? Why not just comment/debate on the actual point of the post?

Deflection all the way ...

I think if we all (left and right leaning) would just ask ourselves how we'd feel if the other side did what we are defending we may be further ahead.

I can't see those that voted Liberal thinking that a Harper government was just smart and using all the tools available if he canceled all opposition days in order to hold on to power with his scratched up finger tips.

I just can't.

This is about as low as Canadian politics has ever sank however, so I guess comparisons won't hold a whole lot of water either. We're redefining rock bottom on a daily basis.

[Bingo]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Apr 20 2005, 09:36 AM
He wants someone to say why the Conservatives are good and worth voting for, and "they're not the Liberals" is not an acceptable reason. For as much as those on the right accuse Liberal supporters of turning the debate around against the Conservatives, you do it just as much -- rather than prop up your own party of choice, all I ever hear is "The Liberals are stealing money from Canadians and we have to get them out of power."

So here's your chance to tell everyone why we should put the CPC in power. What about their policies do you like? How do you think they would make Canada a better place?

And I don't want to hear the words "Liberal" or "Sponsorship Scandal" once in your reasoning.

Sadly that's where the liberal party is, however.

If the government sinks to a low like this almost any replacement is an ASSUMED step up. Not a hard point to make.

If you and your wife hire a nanny to look after your kids and then it turns out that she's looted your house, defecated on your sofa and beaten your kids, there's a really good chance that the next nanny the service sends over will be a step up. Fairly good gamble to make.

Beyond that, and without a corrupt Liberal government in place, this discussion would fall to a conceptial discussion left vs right politics. Taxation levels, spending levels, government reach and size, US relations, military spending, foreign policy.

I like the conservative view in almost all those categories, but it's pointless to even get into them when the Liberal offering is corrupt.

[transplant99]

And I don't want to hear the words "Liberal" or "Sponsorship Scandal" once in your reasoning.

Are you suggesting that a political scandal offered up by the LIBERALS, that is now reaching into the multi-millions of TAXPAYERS dollars, isnt enough for other people to consider an alternative party??

Wow.

Even if I wasnt a conservative leaning guy....this whole episode, (which is just so indicative of the entire Fiberal party IMO) would have me seriously looking at ANY other party than the one that is perpetrating this colossal and criminal rip-off of Canadians EVRYWHERE.

I didn't vote PC after the Mulroney years for much of the same reason...they didnt deserve to be returned to office. Period. Why is it different now just because the Fibs are the party?

[transplant99]

Good question.

As much as I disagree with just about every single NDP stance on the issues of the day, I would still rather see them elected than the Libs.

The Libs simply dont deserve another day of being the governing body of this nation. They screwed the people and themselves....all by themselves.

They have to be dealt a punishing blow IMO, before anything will ever change within the party itself. Martin being Finance Minister the whole time this money was being directed into Lib coffers (provincially or federally) just reeks to the highest of heavens.

[Agamemnon]

I've been thinking about this scam from a different angle after having/reading several debates.

I assume that there are aspects of this political/cash corruption that are illegal... to the point that these illegalities are the fundamental foundation of the 'scandal'. I think most of us can probably agree that appropriating taxpayers money and pocketing it is 'illegal', and I'm sure the law, officially, would agree.

So here's my take; Why aren't the police/judiciary handling this? If there is wrongdoing evident, where is the criminal investigation (or is there one being conducted by the RCMP already)? Seriously, if this scandal is as bad as 'people' say (and I believe it is) then where is the legal system?

I know the RCMP have been implicated (lightly), but still, I see the issue as fairly simple. If crimes have been committed (even/especially by Martin), then arrest his/their asses and throw them in jail. In fact, if the Liberal Party is this nest of supposed corrupt vipers, then why not investigate and arrest the lot?

I've always found legal courts to be better than courts of opinion, so why hasn't this issue been dragged in front of a judge? Is it too early for criminal proceedings?

Seriously, tell me. It seems to me the easiest/best way to deal w/ it, instead of all this intense federal politicking. Find out whose guilty, charge them, imprison them, and get on w/ life. If Chretien and Martin are criminals, they belong in jail.

What am I missing?

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by fotze@Apr 20 2005, 11:21 AM
I don't know, they should probably be punished but the damage done by stealing probably pales in what could happen if the ND's get in. Look what they did to British Columbia, the Bryan Fogarty equivalent province of Canada.

And Saskatchewan, and Manitoba...

An NDP federal government might just finally tear this country apart.

[Resolute 14]

Saskatchewan has oil. They dont have as much as we do, but they do have enough to be prosperous, as they are finally discovering. NDP rule really set them back.

I know the Liberals have asked the RCMP to investigate anybody who would have defrauded the party and country.

Several of the people involved - including Brault - have already been charged in the case. I think one has already been convicted, not sure.

I would hope that once this inquiry wraps up that the RCMP will be given the mandate to go after the politicians who were involved.