China unviels J-20 stealth fighter ahead of schedule

[CaptainCrunch]

Man, I'm making all kinds of mistakes.

Shut up

Stop looking at me.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by HOZ

They already have one now! LINK


Seriously, they are building one. Or refurbishing one.

Looks like the Chinese are about to add another carrier to their fleet. Chinese businessmen just bought the decommissioned HMS Illustrious from the British to use as a "school". More than likely they'll probably just refurbish this one to be another carrier as just like the case with the Russian carrier.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12134071

[Hack&Lube]

LOL @ China. First they buy a carrier to make into a casino. Then they buy another carrier to make into a school. All along they were buying carriers to make into carriers! Who would have thunk?

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Breaker High Commie Style.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

LOL @ China. First they buy a carrier to make into a casino. Then they buy another carrier to make into a school. All along they were buying carriers to make into carriers! Who would have thunk?

They're studying carrier theory, pulling the best features of each to design their own.

Its pretty smart.

Even though, if I was looking at carriers, that ski jump system has to go.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

They're studying carrier theory, pulling the best features of each to design their own.

Its pretty smart.

Even though, if I was looking at carriers, that ski jump system has to go.

China's stated goal is to put themselves back in the world centre stage. This means both militarily and economically. With the US declining and its production base all be destroyed, it looks to be not a matter of if but a matter of when the Chinese will surpass the US economically. Militarily, US estimates only had the Chinese 20 years behind.

The gap is shrinking, Chinese are fast learners and this will just give them more to work with.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

China's stated goal is to put themselves back in the world centre stage. This means both militarily and economically. With the US declining and its production base all be destroyed, it looks to be not a matter of if but a matter of when the Chinese will surpass the US economically. Militarily, US estimates only had the Chinese 20 years behind.

The gap is shrinking, Chinese are fast learners and this will just give them more to work with.

I think its fairly arrogant to believe that the U.S. production base is destroyed, especially on the military side of things, and while Chinese are surpassing the American's right now, the economy is a fluid thing, I remember panic about the Japanese and other nations before that taking over the world economically.

In terms of being able to project power, because of U.S. trade relationships and alliances around the globe, they will always put an emphasis on the ability to project power.

China may be estimated to be 20 years behind the American's in terms of military technology, but I have my doubts about that because from a military technology standpoint the American's intentionally handicap their capabilities on the world stage, and then when they need to they show frightening capability.

The Chinese are entering the carrier race 100 years behind the Americans in terms of experience, tactics and understanding. The American's currently have 11 Super Carriers on active duty with the latest being the George Bush launched early last year. They have 3 additional Super Carriers either under construction or on order with the next one coming out of Dry Dock in 4 years. The Gerald Ford represents a new carrier class and is a generation ahead of the previous classes.

While the American's are focusing on these Super Carrier's all other nations including the Chinese are focusing on more Jeep class Conventionally powered carriers.

Right now on Carrier technology and power protection its not 20 years behind its more like 50. And I'm not even including the fighters that they launch, and the lessons learned by the American's over 100 years of carrier operations.

The American's right now are ahead in most aspects of naval technology. Subs, Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers and Carriers and not just in technology but in technical capability. The same echo's on land based and air based war fighting capability, and America has been fighting continuosly for the last decade so they do have a training and experience advantage.

If the war is fought economically then China definately has a fairly significant edge, but I can't see America just allowing the Chinese to jeapardize their economic future without using trade leverage or monetary policy to protect themselves.

But from a military standpoint, I'd say 20 years is optimistic.

[Barnes]

The HMS Invincible (not Illustrious) is a carrier for VTOL planes and helicopters (Harriers and Sea Kings). It doesn't appear to have a catapult or arresting cables.

Not a very complex ship and I would guess that they could build one themselves pretty easily.

I don't think the Chinese have any VTOL planes so I guess they could use it as an expeditionary transport for something like a US Marine force and some choppers.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think its fairly arrogant to believe that the U.S. production base is destroyed, especially on the military side of things, and while Chinese are surpassing the American's right now, the economy is a fluid thing, I remember panic about the Japanese and other nations before that taking over the world economically.

I should have clarified economic production base. Manufacturing for the vast majority of things has been outsourced.

I totally agree militarily the US have a very big edge no doubt about it. Just saying with a large economy to support the military expansion, the gap is going to close at some point, maybe not soon though.

Originally Posted by Barnes

The HMS Invincible (not Illustrious) is a carrier for VTOL planes and helicopters (Harriers and Sea Kings). It doesn't appear to have a catapult or arresting cables.

I always get those two I ships mixed up.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Barnes

The HMS Invincible (not Illustrious) is a carrier for VTOL planes and helicopters (Harriers and Sea Kings). It doesn't appear to have a catapult or arresting cables.

No Catapult, but it does have the ski jump so that they can launch heavily loaded Harriers. I don't see the Invincible in their carrier list, they do have the Ark Royal and the Illustrious, with two new Conventionally Powered Super Carriers having been laid down last year (The Queen Elizabeth and the Prince of Whales). These carriers will have steam catapults and arrestor cables and are designed to use the F-35 Naval. The current carriers are almost like the U.S. amphibious assualt ships.

Originally Posted by Barnes

Not a very complex ship and I would guess that they could build one themselves pretty easily.

And thats fine if your going to war against India, but in terms of power projection, the light carriers are far outclassed, outranged and outgunned by the American Super Carriers.

Originally Posted by Barnes

I don't think the Chinese have any VTOL planes so I guess they could use it as an expeditionary transport for something like a US Marine force and some choppers.

The Chinese intend to use the Sukhoi SU-33 Flanker which is the naval plane built by the Russians to fly off of their carriers. They're ok planes, but not big performers.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

I should have clarified economic production base. Manufacturing for the vast majority of things has been outsourced.

I totally agree militarily the US have a very big edge no doubt about it. Just saying with a large economy to support the military expansion, the gap is going to close at some point, maybe not soon though.



I always get those two I ships mixed up.

The U.S. won't outsource a lot of their major military projects, and they tend to make a lot of money in licensing designs or outright selling them to their allies.

In terms of ship building the Americans are building three carriers of the new class
4 new amphibious assault ships
20 new Virginia class submarines
6 more Burke Class Destroyers
3 of a new class of destroyers
And a wack of frigates.

Ship manufacturing is definately not hurting right now.

[868904]

Yeah China is very much behind the US militarily. It's not just a matter of having a big economy or even the knowledge to develop certain weapons, but more importantly it's the knowledge to use the weapons effectively.

On a related issue, does anyone think we could be headed for some serious conflict in the future as China does close the gap militarily between them and the US?

How close will the US allow China to get to them in terms of a military rival? The US has always benefited economically from being THE military superpower in the world. If this status is threatened, what will they do?

For the most part, Americans are good people, but all it takes is some idiot like Palin to get elected and things could get crazy really fast.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by 868904

Yeah China is very much behind the US militarily. It's not just a matter of having a big economy or even the knowledge to develop certain weapons, but more importantly it's the knowledge to use the weapons effectively.

On a related issue, does anyone think we could be headed for some serious conflict in the future as China does close the gap militarily between them and the US?

How close will the US allow China to get to them in terms of a military rival? The US has always benefited economically from being THE military superpower in the world. If this status is threatened, what will they do?

For the most part, Americans are good people, but all it takes is some idiot like Palin to get elected and things could get crazy really fast.

I doubt there will be a shooting war between the U.S. and China unless the Chinese decide to increase their amphibious capability and cast their eyes towards Taiwan.

Right now the Chinese have in effect a landlocked army thats not designed to go too far outside of their borders, so their only war options are North into Siberia (resources? Living Space) or South through Korea. With their nuclear capabilities they could probably threaten Taiwan or Japan, but the risk is high because both countries are major U.S. Allies.

The biggest differences is that the United States is very much a power projection military. They can very quickly mobilize anywhere else in the world troop wise. They have Aircraft Carriers that can project power in any trouble spot, and they have an excellent submarine fleet, and with the conversion of Ohio Class to Special Forces capable SSGN's they deal out devestating damage anywhere they want to.

The American's can project power off of the Chinese Coast, but I doubt they would be interested in putting boots on the ground in China.

Any war with China is going to be economic, and that would be a hellacious dirty war with the whole World Economy getting hit.

[woob]

Originally Posted by STeeLy

Too bad Canada doesn't have any carriers eh?

[CaptainCrunch]

HMCS Bonaventure

[STeeLy]

Too bad it's been retired...

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

No Catapult, but it does have the ski jump so that they can launch heavily loaded Harriers. I don't see the Invincible in their carrier list, they do have the Ark Royal and the Illustrious, with two new Conventionally Powered Super Carriers having been laid down last year (The Queen Elizabeth and the Prince of Whales). These carriers will have steam catapults and arrestor cables and are designed to use the F-35 Naval. The current carriers are almost like the U.S. amphibious assualt ships.

The Invincible was decommissioned in 2005 which is why it's not on the list. The Ark Royal is being decommissioned this year and the Illustrious will be decommissioned in 2014. The roles that this class of carrier fulfilled will be taken over by the HMS Ocean as the BN will no longer have any Harriers past 2019.

The QE Class was originally designed to use the STOVL version of the f-35 but was decided to use the Navy version and the QE class had to be redesigned to be more like the on hold French Navy carrier.

The second (Prince of Whales, sic. )Queen Elizabeth class ship will either be held on to and kept in a state of readiness for activation when the first is in drydock or refit or, it could be sold to an ally. Maybe, HMCS Bonaventure sounds nice.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Barnes

The Invincible was decommissioned in 2005 which is why it's not on the list. The Ark Royal is being decommissioned this year and the Illustrious will be decommissioned in 2014. The roles that this class of carrier fulfilled will be taken over by the HMS Ocean as the BN will no longer have any Harriers past 2019.

The QE Class was originally designed to use the STOVL version of the f-35 but was decided to use the Navy version and the QE class had to be redesigned to be more like the on hold French Navy carrier.

The second (Prince of Whales, sic. )Queen Elizabeth class ship will either be held on to and kept in a state of readiness for activation when the first is in drydock or refit or, it could be sold to an ally. Maybe, HMCS Bonaventure sounds nice.

Maybe another "school" or "casino" coming soon.

[flylock shox]

I've always wondered why nobody's designed a stealth fighter that looks like a cloud.

Got something on radar chief.
What is it?
Looks like a rain cloud.
Crap. I just washed my damned car this morning.
Ha ha. Radar shows one big raindrop heading right at us Chief.
BOOM!

That would be awesome. I'm going to email Skunk Works right now...

[GGG]

My one fear with China is there demographic situation. There 1 child policy and preferance for males means that there are going to be a lot of surplus men that China has to do something with.

A restless unmarried male population is a recipe for revolution. So they need to do something with these people and war for them might be a good option.